Chatwood safe for sale on ebay
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Have see ones with similar sliding hook bolts before, but not with this double locking, looks interesting.
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Chatwood safe for sale on ebay
Attachment 19151 Attachment 19152 Attachment 19153 Attachment 19154
Have see ones with similar sliding hook bolts before, but not with this double locking, looks interesting.
That's a nice Chatwood Gary, never seen one with the big loop handle and a knob directly above it, I wonder is the knob fixed as a door pull or do they both operate the boltwork?
Tom it'll be interesting to know if both work or not, I've had a new thread planned for years now on safes with two separate working handles/stages to the boltwork, just never got around to starting it. Let us all know when you get it, I'll add it to the list if it is.
Tom, I see that the seller included a photograph of the List 5 handles on a safe which Neil Coulson refurbished for a customer some years ago. That was #12116 with the small key unlocking the shutter which was in turn controlled by the knob handle. I believe that this shutter was at one time made of platinum. Could you be so fortunate?
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Aha, so the knob controls the shutter and the drop handle the boltwork, thanks safeman.
Struggling to get my head around the use of Platinum on the shutter though, can't think of any of its properties that would suit the application here in terms of tensile/impact strength, anti-drill etc, not to mention it's generally around the cost of pure Gold bullion, and at times has been valued much higher.
Something like a Tungsten dense metal alloy I could understand for numerous reasons, but I don't think the technologies for sintering the heavy Tungsten alloys were around then, can you tell us any more safeman?
I have opened one in the past with the boltwork like this one but that just had a single sideways keyhole for a sideways mounted small invincible lock.
How heat conductive is platinum? if it was for a keyway shield it might have been for torch resistance?
It could well be Gary, it's soft and malleable so its conductivity would have to be ridiculously good to make the slightest bit of sense for its use over cheap alternatives like copper though.
Even at Chatwood's prices I reckon a decent slab of Platinum plate that size would have cost half as much as the safe! Seems a very odd choice.
It's melting point is also pretty high but I think around half that of Tungsten which IIRC is mental at well over 6000 degrees F, although I understand what you're saying with conductivity and not the melting point being the key.
We used to have platinum lined barrels for when using the machine guns in sustained fire role. Apparently it had some property that was needed in dissipating heat, or something of the sort. Apparently they were astronomically expensive.
[QUOTE=Huw Eastwood;28319]It could well be Gary, it's soft and malleable so its conductivity would have to be ridiculously good to make the slightest bit of sense for its use over cheap alternatives like copper though.
Samuel used platinum as I believe that it is impervious to the effect of such as sulphuric acid being applied into the lever pack. Probably in the top range only.
The Danish Testing Authority at one time, maybe till today, were most concerned about this which resulted in Tann putting a brass ferrule in the bottom of the Kromer lock cases which was attached by wire to a relocker.
The Clydesdale Bank in Glasgow, the most far sighted security wise, asked me to conduct an acid attack on the Kromer Novum about 40 years ago. I was much more apprehensive in this test than I would have been with my Gelignite. The lock was attached to a post under which was a covering of soda ash to neutralist the spillage which was considerable as the lock had to be flooded and constantly refilled with fuming sulphuric acid before the levers disintigrated sufficiently for a torque key to withdraw the bolt.
I'm a bit out of touch now but I seem to recall that Aqua Regia, a combination of sulphuric and hydrochloric acid would act similarly on platinum.
Ooh. It's quite heavy.
[QUOTE=safeman;28324][QUOTE=
I'm a bit out of touch now but I seem to recall that Aqua Regia, a combination of sulphuric and hydrochloric acid would act similarly on platinum.[/QUOTE]
In saying that I was a bit out of touch is an understatement as I now realise that where I referred to Sulphuric Acid I should have said Nitric Acid.
Perhaps I'm up a gum tree again with my theory that when Tann sometimes placed a couple of steel levers among the brass ones in the likes of the Tann 4S Reliance Lock it was to lessen the effects of acid upon the lock.
Tom, you will doubtless have this information already but here goes:
Chatwood's Patent 1865 No.778. Keyholes lined with platinum alloy as a protection against acid and heat.
List 6 Sextiple Patent price list 'if fitted with Chatwood's Patent Platinum Key-hole Plug Lock £10 extra.' (date approx.1879). This extra not mentioned in List 5 or below.
I havent taken it apart but it turns out to be a No3 size, List 5 which infact is the same as a List 4A with that lovely dovetail, sliding boltwork added. Locks are 1867 and 1880
The small horizontal key moves the keyhole shutter away.
The larger key then moves the levers on a lock similar to a fanlock (but without the fans).
Then the knob moves the lock bolt into the levers.
Then the drop handle moves the boltwork of the safe,
so that you can pull it open with the pull handle.
Not only is it a nice Xmas present to myself but when I looked at the white paint which obliterated the original paintwork and detailing, I found that it was only whitewash and completely rubbed off with just a dry bit of kitchen paper - easiest job ever!
Slightly OT, but does anybody remember an old Ratner with a top combination lock and a bottom key lock? The combination lock not only locked the boltwork, but also slid a cover down to block the keyway for the keylock.
Yep they were nice safes often single skin bodies, we had the chance of a few being scrapped in the late 80s but we didn't have the space.
I have a couple of the Yale comb locks which operated the Ratner keyhole shutters, the shutter plates were flimsy compared to the high end Chatwood stuff focused in this thread though.
https://www.antique-locks.com/showth...ht=Ratner+Yale
Tom let's see some pics then.
Crumbs, yes they were. We used to have to enclose them in a brick pillar. (That was common enough where I was at the time,but it was required for those).
Chubby, the 1920's heavy Ratners - List 6 & 7 and later the Grade 7- were offered with 2 keylocks plus the option of the Ratner Letter Lock to close off the keyway. On the Grade 7 (below right) the 3 horizontal arrows show the live 'Safety Bolt' at the top and 2 dead 'Safety Bolts' on the left. The vertical arrow shows part of the servo bar from the letter lock. As far as I know Ratner was the first to use an anti-explosive device - the dead one in 1913 and the live one in 1918. I daresay the Letter Lock was superseded by the 1930's.
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Was the letter lock a blister covering the keyway?
How did the letter lock obscure the keyway?
How wonderful. I was thinking of the little hinged units that used to be fitted over the keyway of government safes. There was a CM Manifoil lock which had to be opened and a door hinged open. They provided an effective dual control, but that was not the purpose.
I'm at differerence with you on this Parautoptic. As I see it the closing of the keyway by a shutter was part of the original specification and solely intended to make the safe resistant to explosive attack, firstly gunpowder then high explosives. The Chatwood Treasury was particularly effective against this latter form of attack.
On the other hand Dual Control was originally known as Partnership locking which adequately describes the system and which would be incorporated n the original design specification.
The earliest wrought iron security cupboards as they were know before fire-proofing were
usually fastened by wheel locks and box-of wards locks which with their large keyways were very vulnerable to gunpowder attack.
The only defence against this was the lockable escutcheon with a compact Barron lock in a casing with chamfered edges to resist sledging. This by design could also be described as dual locking but not necessary the intention.
Later in the century brass escutcheon locks were commonly used incorporating very small lever locks. The application was probably as a retro-fit on single lock safes where dual control was later considered desirable against acts of collusion.
Dual control was also available within a single lock of course.
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Safeman, I think we are at crossed purposes here. The comment about the container with a less secure lock was referring to the blisters that MOD used to use, and may well still use, over a keyhole.
The combination blisters absolutely were for that purpose. Obviously the best thing with confidential material is that it is never seen by anyone who is unauthorised. Next best thing is if they have been compromised, you at least know that this has happened.
[QUOTE=Chubby;28417]Safeman, I think we are at crossed purposes here. The comment about the container with a less secure lock was referring to the blisters that MOD used to use, and may well still use, over a keyhole.
Could be right Chubby. Thought the subject was keyhole shutters.
My fault for taking things off topic.
If the Chatwood is easily drillable it would be to facilitate a lesser level of dual control against sarupticious entry but it it was hardened then it would be anti explosive. Of course if it was hardened it would do both.
Sometime I will try drilling the sliding obstruction and if it was easy we will know that it wasn't against forced entry.
interesting line of enquiry!