Mosler Bahmann Sales Ledger 1887-1892

[wylk]

Could you double-check that patent date? I can't find any S&G patent for 7/14/1871, in fact no lock patents at all on that date. A close-up photo of the dial might help.

Mosler Bahmann was founded around 1867. Many sources claim that when Gustav Mosler died in 1874, the company was renamed Mosler Safe Company. I believe this is wrong, both companies existed for at least 20 years, and there was even a patent infringement suit between the two companies in 1888. The last trace of Mosler Bahmann I've found is a New York City directory entry from 1898, two blocks away from Mosler Safe Co.

Warner was an agent of Mosler Bahmann from 1870 to about 1884. Some of the safes he sold had his name only (no manufacturer's name), and at various times he apparently sold Mosler Bahmann as well as Mosler Safe Co. products.

[Dean Nickel]

Some things that might help us help you. Pictures of the lock (inside under the door cover) and any markings on it. Pictures of the lock with the cover off and in the locked and unlocked condition.

[smkyhllw]

The combination dial has "Sargent & Greenleaf" around the top then in the middle of the dial it says "Pat'd" and lists the following dates from top to bottom:September 18, 1860, January 9, 1866, August 28, 1866, July 14, 1857, EX. 7 Years, July 14, 1871. Underneath the dates around the bottom of the dial says Rochester, NY. Hope this helps? Thanks for your reply.

[wylk]

9/18/1860: Patent 30,092 was for a combination lock invented by George Rosner, and assigned to Halbert S. Greenleaf. So this predates even the S&G partnership. The patent was re-issued on 7/25/1871 as RE 4,488.

1/9/1866: Patent 51,973 was for an improvement in combination locks, invented by James Sargent and H. W. Covert. I was not aware of this patent until now.

8/28/1866: Patent 57,574 was for a combination lock invented by James Sargent. Re-issued as RE 4,696 on 1/2/1872.

7/14/1857 is interesting for two reasons. First, patent dates are usually listed in order and this one isn't. Second, the best fit seems to be a patent not explicitly assigned to S&G. It's 17,804 by L. F. Munger for a permutation lock that seems more like a door lock than a safe lock.

"EX 7 YEARS" has me a bit confused. Excluding? Except?

7/14/1871 seems wrong, there are zero patents on that date, for anything. In fact, that's a Friday and IIRC all patents are issued on Tuesdays.

Now, all this is interesting but it only speaks of the lock, not of the safe. Safe buyers sometimes specified whose lock they wanted on a safe, and of course through its lifetime the lock could have been changed out with a different one. And the lock could have been changed while the older dial was retained. Finally, patent dates can only firmly establish "made no earlier than" dates, not actual or "made no later than" dates (without a sample of manufactured items of known date). Still, assuming the dial and lock are original to this safe, it is indeed quite old and seems to be of similar age as the safe.

Still hoping for some pictures of the safe and lock!

Jim

[Tom Gordon]

"EX 7 YEARS" - could that mean that the patent got an extension? 7 years seems an odd amount to extend it.

[Dean Nickel]

I am thinking that there was an issue with the patent being issued and instead of going off the file date they extended it to cover the time it took to clear up the problem.

[wylk]

Interestingly there is an S&G dial for sale on eBay, item 320477658066, that matches the description "smkyhllw" gave.

[curiousbob]

I have a safe the serial # is 15829, 1867-1891 Mosler, bahmann & co. peter gratz. cin. ohio if you have any information regarding this safe could you please let me know. i am curious about it's history and how much it is worth. thank you for your time.
Bob Schaefer

[curiousbob]

I have a safe the serial # is 15829, 1867-1891 Mosler, bahmann & co. peter gratz. cin. ohio if you have any information regarding this safe could you please let me know. i am curious about it's history and how much it is worth. thank you for your time.
Bob Schaefer

I am very interested in your opinion could you please reply to me!! Thank YOU, Bob Schaefer

[jacobrules]

Here is what the book entry has for that serial number.
Jacob