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  1. #21
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    Default Burton-Harris Bolt Activating Device--additional pix

    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Huse View Post
    Problem is, there is no "switch lever" on the jamb. So, I can only assume the H-B Device works on a timer. I have another model which uses a switch lever on the inside door jam, so I know what you mean. I tried testing this apparatus by cocking the bolt motor, as suggested, and it cocked but nothing (subsequently) happened -- even after 30 minutes. I reset it by manually performing the action of the snubber bar and it clanked loudly but, of course, couldn't retract the bolts since they had never been extended. Help! PS. Excuse the partially blurred, turned pix. The glass in the timelock door is broken and I have a baggie taped over the opening to block dust.
    These pix are a bit clearer. Notice on the B-H device are to levers. The one on the right interacts with the snubber bar. The left one is a mystery. It has two positions and neither seems to do anything.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails P1013192.jpg   P1013193.jpg  

  2. #22
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    The Burton Harris that I had to repair had an internal timer that was broken. It did not have separate control handle though. I found a picture of one in "American Genius" p. 256 that shows an inside shot of the front section of the case that contains the timer box and it does the control handle. The timer box is pretty much the same as the one I repaired. Here are some pictures.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_20161124_114624.jpg   IMG_20161124_114942.jpg   IMG_20161124_115017.jpg  

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug MacQueen View Post
    The Burton Harris that I had to repair had an internal timer that was broken. It did not have separate control handle though. I found a picture of one in "American Genius" p. 256 that shows an inside shot of the front section of the case that contains the timer box and it does the control handle. The timer box is pretty much the same as the one I repaired. Here are some pictures.
    Doug, A couple of questions: Is it possible or even likely that the bolts are simply frozen and resisting the action of the BH device? Second, if that is not the case (I'll use some penetrating oil to find out) , did your internal timer repair involve making an adjustment or replacing a part? I'm at a loss of what to do if dissembly of the box is so dangerous.

  4. #24
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    The part I had to make, is the weighted S shaped spring, mounted to a shaft in the circular cavity. This is known as a dashpot. As it spins, the weights move outward and rub against the wall surface, slowing the spinning shaft. There is a coiled mainspring that powers the shaft, and the gear train greatly reduces the torque applied to the shaft while greatly increasing the spin speed. With a broken S spring the shaft speed was uncontrolled and did not give you any time to get the door closed. With the S spring replaced, it would give you sufficient time to get the door closed, roughly 30 seconds as I remember. So for starters, it sounds like yours has a different, possibly opposite type of problem where the dashpot is bound up and not free to release and spin down.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug MacQueen View Post
    The part I had to make, is the weighted S shaped spring, mounted to a shaft in the circular cavity. This is known as a dashpot. As it spins, the weights move outward and rub against the wall surface, slowing the spinning shaft. There is a coiled mainspring that powers the shaft, and the gear train greatly reduces the torque applied to the shaft while greatly increasing the spin speed. With a broken S spring the shaft speed was uncontrolled and did not give you any time to get the door closed. With the S spring replaced, it would give you sufficient time to get the door closed, roughly 30 seconds as I remember. So for starters, it sounds like yours has a different, possibly opposite type of problem where the dashpot is bound up and not free to release and spin down.

    So, is it possible the dashpot is bound up due to resistence from a bolt apparatus frozen in place? Remember, after I concluded the bolts were not going to extend, I relieved pressure on the bolt motor by manually triggering the bolts to retreat to the unlocked position. While the bolts could not retreat, the bolt motor did, nonetheless, make a lould clank. This safe could have sat for many years since the bolts moved. Lubricant on the bolts could have hardened.

  6. #26
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    From the one picture you posted ,it looks like the bolts are retracted. Either way remove the bronze bolt work connection block and that should allow you to help isolate and locate the problem area. As always, watch where you put your fingers.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug MacQueen View Post
    From the one picture you posted ,it looks like the bolts are retracted. Either way remove the bronze bolt work connection block and that should allow you to help isolate and locate the problem area. As always, watch where you put your fingers.
    OK, I'll take your advice and report back. If the bolt motor won't "extend" regardless of no load situation (plate disconnected), would you like to have a go at troubleshooting and repair?

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gordon Huse View Post
    OK, I'll take your advice and report back. If the bolt motor won't "extend" regardless of no load situation (plate disconnected), would you like to have a go at troubleshooting and repair?
    Hi Doug-- I got some WD40 to seep into each of the bolt sockets and, without disconnecting the bolt motor from the bolt appartatus, was able to move all the bolts fully inward (unlocked) and fully outward (locked) with minimal tapping with a balpine hammer. Then leaving the bolts in the inward position I cocked the bolt motor but after 15-20 minutes it made no effort to expand/lock them. Leaving the bolt motor in the cocked position, I moved the bolts to the expanded/locked position and then manually toggled the bolt release lever and the bolt motor retracted the bolts with force. So, it has no trouble unlocking the safe.

    What does this tell us?

  9. #29
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    With all due respect to Doug MacQueen, the mechanism he described is not actually a dashpot which is more like a pneumatic cylinder. Push on a dashpot's operating rod and it will slowly move as air escapes at a preset rate. The mechanism Doug described is more a centrifugal speed regulator or centrifugal governor.

    Adding to the confusion, B-H had three patents in which a centrifugal device is described (364,922 and 383,040 and 383,041) and another in which a dashpot is described and illustrated (382,071).

    A similar centrifugal device was used in dial telephones, for example, to regulate the rate at which the dial returns to its resting position. This provided adequate timing control for the pulses sent to the central office.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by wylk View Post
    With all due respect to Doug MacQueen, the mechanism he described is not actually a dashpot which is more like a pneumatic cylinder. Push on a dashpot's operating rod and it will slowly move as air escapes at a preset rate. The mechanism Doug described is more a centrifugal speed regulator or centrifugal governor.

    Adding to the confusion, B-H had three patents in which a centrifugal device is described (364,922 and 383,040 and 383,041) and another in which a dashpot is described and illustrated (382,071).

    A similar centrifugal device was used in dial telephones, for example, to regulate the rate at which the dial returns to its resting position. This provided adequate timing control for the pulses sent to the central office.
    Well, that certainly clears things up! Since the unit in question simply says "Patented" I'll take a look at all the patents referenced to , first, try to conclude which unit we have here, and if that is possible, what it is doing. As I said earlier, the unit will allow manual "opening and closing" action and appears fully functional insofar as closing or retracting the bolts. So, we may have less of a "speed regulation" problem and more of a "timer/activation" problem. Absolutely not pretending to have some personal insight here but just reading between the lines, so to speak. Ultimately, there appears to be no substitute for (someone knowledgeable) opening it up.

    Much thanks to Wylk. Doug, what is your reaction?

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