Kellner-Chubb

[Cepasaccus]

This is the second Chubb (Bankers?) I have seen with this background: The white/red stickers are from the German Federal Post and specify how much money the post office was allowed to store there. There is also a label top left corner on the inside of the door with "Kellner". This is a German safe manufacturer, that made lots of safes for the German Federal Post and other German agencies according to German Federal safe standards. So it was clearly used at a German post office.

Because of these German Federal safe standards and the many safes built according to them I am puzzled why there are a few import safes for this market. From the looks this Chubb might be the same security class as the highest German grade (SG IIIa). The cash limit written on the label is below the usual limit for an SG IIIa, but this depends also on the security measures at the post office, so it still might be considered to be of equal security by the German agencies. A reason could be that it predates the SG IIIa or that it was imported to fill a post WWII production gap. The oldest SG IIIa I have seen so far was from 1972.

Has anyone heard about these imports?

Any dating of this Chubb?

[Huw Eastwood]

From memory there were a few models from the Bankers down to the Standard TDR with that appearance and door furniture- looks to be the earlier pattern handle and pull- iirc, when they updated to 1st strength they changed the bolt throw handles and the D pulls from those earlier castings, which helps identify.

The serial number should identify which model with certainty, but your safe has a noticeable difference to most that age and appearance -unusual to see both locks above the handle, the more common configuration is one above and one below, so that difference alone might narrow it down and identify it.

I’ve got brochures for loads of Chubb from that era- bankers, standard TDR, resolute etc but all are back in storage. Can look when next dig them out , hopefully someone else can identify it sooner. I know zero about Germany’s safe imports or their PO grading system etc .

[Cepasaccus]

Thanks Huw. I can ask the seller about the serial number. Where should it be located?

German government safes are not very famous. The highest grade has a key hole filling piece (not sure about the English name, but the literal translation of the German word describes it quite nicely IMHO), which is locked in place by the combination lock. On one of the photos it looks exactly like that. I have not seen this on any of the Chubb-Chubbs in the books. So it might be a modification for Germany and possibly they could fit this only with two top locks.

[Gary Stephenson]

Like Huw says it looks like a TDR or Duplextra type safe, is the keylock double bitted?
there doesn't look to be an id label on the back pan, so check on the ends of the boltwork bolts for serial numbers, a picture of the locks and boltwork may also help

[Gary Stephenson]

plate on back pan or dyno tape on top hinge, or plate on body below door are where serial numbers could be, but cannot see them on your photos, so check the bolt ends

[Cepasaccus]

I asked for the number on the bolt. I doubt the seller will open the back door. I doubt he has the key for it. The key way is double bitted. It can be seen on the key hole filling piece. The key looks like it has a detachable bit and this mechanism doesn't look German.

The two internal compartments with doors locked by double bitted locks is very German. They were probably fitted in Germany. The current owner writes it is a gun safe. Someone has removed the sheet separating the two compartments.

[Cepasaccus]

Doesn' look like we will get the serial. No answer.

[Huw Eastwood]

Almost definitely a standard TDR, original first issue before they changed to the black vinyl coated handles.
Turns out the bankers was quite different with a ramped sloping door pull and round boltwork handle with upright trapezium backing trim.
Duplextras were similar, but first generation had T handles and 3 spoke on later mk3 models with a different ‘bamboo’ shaped casting for the D pull, which was always mounted vertically upright, not horizontal like on these.

[Cepasaccus]

Thanks Huw. Do you know when they changed to the black vinyl coated handles? Do you think the Kellner-Chubb is the 4620?

[Huw Eastwood]

Yes going from the photos it looks like a 4620 at 55 inches/1397mm tall, unless your wheelie bins in Germany are only knee-high.
Both the standard TDR brochures have the same reference number with only a slash/1 difference, so unfortunately no clues given as to differences between dates.



Just for the record, I discovered there was a Bankers of similar era with the same boltwork handle and back trim, but it still had the large sloping ramp door pull which clearly differentiates it from these.