Hobbs & Co London - Padlock Manufacture Date?

[Daniel John]

Noted.

No one is claiming anything here. Rather, by a process of deduction, hoping to narrow down, even approximately, the timeframes in which these locks were manufactured.

Something that has become apparent, particularly with the old prison locks, is that very few people seem to have them or, more importantly, know anything about them.

It is partially that aspect, of course, that makes them.so collectable. They were, after all, designed for a purpose totally unique and distinct to any other lock.

The flipside is that it seems incredibly difficult to find historical information regarding them.

It seems likely the blue lock is older but, again, until someone can come forward with literature regarding them (and these locks all would've been in sales catalogues. It is my hope a copy survives because that is where the answers lie), all is conjecture.

[Syd Waterman]

Hello Daniel ,

Information concerning Prison /custodial locks is difficult to come across, especially from the 19^th Century. I suspect manufacturers like Hobbs issued a dedicated catalogue containing details of locks and fitments suitable for prisons.
Regarding your black lock, marked 'Hobbs Hart & Co,' the patent for the lock mechanism is contained within J.M. HartÂ’s patent number 1902,dated July 30^th 1861.
The inscription on the name plate contains a reference to M.M. Ltd, cell lock, and Hobbs Hart & Co. being Sole Manufacturers. This is the only Hobbs cell lock that I have come across that states that they “are Sole Manufacturers”.
Hope this assists in dating the lock –earliest 1861 . I would guess it had a 20 year run.

[Daniel John]

Hi there.

Thank you for the information. It is just this sort of thing I'm looking for, in order to narrow down an approximate age bracket for these locks.

The patent sheet is especially useful. We can say, with certainty, then, that the black locks mechanism had been designed by 1861. At this stage, it'd be fair to say the lock falls somewhere between then and 1880. It is in remarkable condition internally. It originated from the old (long closed) Bodmin Gaol. Speaking to a fellow collector, I've discovered one other example, on a cell door in a very old courthouse in Scotland.

I notice the patent page you attached is sheet 6, of 7 sheets. Would you by any chance have the other sheets, and/or any other literature pertaining to prison locks? I agree, such literature is very hard to come by. I've managed to source original material by Gibbons, Folger Adam, SS and Yale (all dedicated custodial catalogues, as you suggested is the case with such locks). However, still looking for information regarding Hobbs, Chubb, Wing & Webb, and pre-1950 Gibbons. Happy to share literature, and would love to see what others may have.

Re the blue lock, my hunch is it's older than the black one. No.way of verifying this, but the life it's had would certainly suggest so. It also feels slightly more primitive (if such a thing can even be said of a lock by Hobbs!) in manufacture than the black one. It was removed, during a refit (a move to Chubb 4L45), from an HMP built during the 1500s.

[Syd Waterman]

Hi Daniel,
The remainder of Hobbs patent number 1902 contained details of safe locks, no additional info relating to cell locks.
Unfortunately I donÂ’t have any literature from the listing of manufacturers in your email. I was unaware that Wing & Webb were manufacturers of custodial locks.
One name that you left out from the listing was Chas. Smith & Sons.
One of the best ways to potentially date locks is by the design of the mechanism., related to a Patent .
If you post a picture of the mechanism of your Hobbs Blue lock ,itÂ’s possible that I will be able to pin it down to a Patent.
IÂ’m sure that itÂ’s just a typo. It ( referring to the blue lock)was removed, during a refit (a move to Chubb 4L45), from an HMP built during the 1500s.
Syd.

[Daniel John]

Hi again Syd

Yes, indeed, Wing & Webb did make cell locks. See the attached photos of several of their products. Fortunately, these two locks retain their original keys. What is most interesting about the one painted a cream colour (and with the maker's badge) is that it can be operated from both sides. But by the key only, not the handle. It is a double throw lock. When the bolt is fully withdrawn, the key cannot release it. Only by lifting the handle will the bolt shoot to its first position. That it can be unlocked from both sides, by the key, is thus peculiar given that it cannot (at least from what I can deduce) be locked (in terms of first throw) from both sides.

Ah, yes, I did overlook C. Smith. A prominent manufacturer of prison fittings, indeed. Have attached photos of several interesting Smith locks. The one with the large dial is perhaps the most impressive - five levers, and a very well made mechanism. I've encountered one other, in the collection of another member of the site. That member has informed me that literature regarding Smith is very difficult to come by.

Apologies re the info regarding provenance of the blue lock. To clarify, the lock was indeed removed from an institution built in the 1500s. But, of course, the lock would have been fitted sometime in, I suspect, the mid-to-late 1800s. And then removed in the 1940s, with the arrival of the Chubb 4L42.

Interesting regarding the patent info. I do have several Hobbs' safe locks, so would be great to see those other pages if that is possible.

Here is a photo showing internal view of blue Hobbs' lock, as requested.

Thanks again for the insights.

[Syd Waterman]

Hello Daniel,

Thanks for posting the internal picture of the blue Hobbs. Cannot pin it down to a definitive patent, however agree with you that it’s probably earlier than the black Hobbs lock.
The Wing & Webb double sided is certainly different ,definitely not for a cell .

The Smith lock with the indicator is attractive . Have yet to see a catalogue of their range of products.
Another makers of Prison and Asylum locks is Joseph Kaye & Sons. Occasionally come across their Asylum locks as example attached. Three lever ,Double throw, the second throw controlled by the master.
Hope this helps.
Syd.