Yale Model No: 1 c.1880. Double Pin-Dial Time Lock

[oldlock]

Mine is numbered to the right of the lock on the inside of the door.

[elp2tlh]

Well...

One hour and some amount of education later, I can conclude the following:

1) There is not a case number *anywhere* on this bad boy. I removed the movement. I removed the mechanism that blocks the draw bar(s). I removed the cover on the inside of the little case lock. There's nothing. Nada. Just ain't there.
2) The movement is numbered on the face (1842) and also on the edges of the main body plates (same number).
3) The movement is working. I have it ticking away on my desk as we "speak". Of course, if it falls off the edge of the desk and hits my foot I will be crippled, because...
4) I am gonna' need one big screwdriver to remove that backing plate. There are three blued screws behind the 'see-saw' mechanism backing plate that are huge.

I am at a loss about the case. I can find no hint of the 'diamond' pattern that is seen in other photos of this lock. Were it not for the fact that I simply can't imagine machining a replacement case, I would swear that was what was done here. On the other hand, unless there is a batch of these that was made with a different external case I just don't know. The glass certainly looks original, but the 'swirl' pattern is completely consistent over the entire case (including the narrow edges around the glass. And I presume that the lack of a case number is a fairly big clue that something isn't quite right.

Anyway, tomorrow I look for a big screwdriver. If I can't sell it for what I want, I at least want to be able to display it without hurting myself! And that means the backing plate has got to go (into storage, of course, not the trash).

Let me know if this provides any further insight.

Oh, for what it's worth.

The safe in question had dates that were consistent with the lock. It's still sitting where I left it (no doubt about that) and I could ask the new homeowners to look it over if it might provide any clues.

[oldlock]

I've just sent an email to the acknowledged expert on timelocks Dr John Erroll to see if he can have a look at this thread and maybe shed some light, I do have a theory but am not sure at the moment. I'll post if I hear anything further.

[elp2tlh]

If I can assist in any way, please let me know. I could take additional photos (including closeups) and with better light. Two of my co-workers are insane photographers with beautiful cameras and one does close-up nature work and has a ring light and all the macro lenses to let him get real close to his buggy little friends!

You know I am exercising great self-control in not pestering you about your theory, right? <grin> I am intrigued, no doubt, but suspect that you're being kind in not building my hopes up about having a million-dollar lock. (OK, so maybe a $5000 lock or something... or perhaps it's the other way and I have a $1.95 lock?)

I really appreciate your help. Let me know if there's anything I can do to help you help me!

[elp2tlh]

I took another look at the pictures of your lock.

While the movements appear to be identical, the other components are quite different as to finish (while identical as to form).

The decorative machining on the 'see-saw' arm, counterweight, and cylindrical 'fail-safe' spring enclosure are all different, as is the machining on the back plate of this portion of the lock. As noted elsewhere, my back plate is machined in a diamond pattern similar to the outside of your case.

I also note that at the position where the draw bar 'extension' would enter the case your lock has a protrusion (perhaps to position the bar and serve as a guide). Mine has no such protrusion -- merely a hole in the side of the case.

More fuel for the mystery, perhaps.

[oldlock]

I have heard back from John Erroll,

His view, which confirms my theory (in part) is that the case is older than the movements, and it was probably refurbished and modernised at some point in time. It may have had the earlier & rarer movements and when the new movements were installed the original case finish was either worn or damaged so the engine turning was then applied to improve the overall look of the case.

It does not (alas) make the lock worth more, it's probably as before and makes it slightly less desirable amongst collectors because of the lack of original finish.

One other place where you may find the original case number in beside the keyhole, although it maybe very faint.

[elp2tlh]

I wanted to stop back by thank everyone (particularly 'OldLock') for their help with my mystery lock.

I did find a buyer that seems to be a real fan, so the lock is headed to its new home even as we 'speak'.

Thanks once again for your assistance.

[elp2tlh]

As a result of a request from another visitor to the site and also from the purchaser of the lock, I dug around and found some pictures of the safe which held the mechanism and am posting them here as a coda to our discussions and a thank-you to everyone for their help. I am including my comments to the lock purchaser to help put the photos in perspective.



The first photo is a view of the front of the safe with the doors closed. At the time these pictures were taken, we had not calculated the combinations and it was absolutely forbidden to close the doors all the way lest we not get back in! You can read the safe manufacturer's info on the face: Herring Hall Marvin Co. of Hamilton, Ohio (with no Oklahoma or Oregon yet, they didn't need the 'h' on the state abbreviation).



The next photo shows the safe with all doors open. Those exterior doors were concrete filled and if you managed to get them open, all you saw was the second set of doors. Very disappointing to some safe cracker of the day. Behind those was the large open section at the bottom and the two timelock protected vaults at the top. The mechanism is visible on the right hand vault. This door overlapped the left hand vault and thus both were protected by the timelock. The name of the bank is visible across the top of the safe: The Gilmer County Bank. The bank was likely located in Glenville, West Virginia as that is the only town of any size in the county. If you do a Google on "Gilmer County Bank" you'll find one in Georgia, but that isn't the one.



The next photo shows a closer view of the top two vaults. Visible in the right vault is the component that attached to the drawbar mechanism (see next photo for location) and interacted with the timelock (through the visible hole) to control timed safe access. Visible in the left vault is the plate array that actually was spun by the exterior dial to allow access to the vault. In retrospect, I wish I had taken these as well as all were beautiful pieces of craftsmanship. The one for the left vault was particularly interesting. Instead of fixed pins to control the interaction of the rotating plates, one side of each plate had a hinge point with a small "floating" widget that moved back and forth between two padded pins. When the dial was turned and the faint click would be heard through a stethoscope (yes, it does work) the click would be the sound of the pin striking the small swing-arm widget. Then the swing arm would move about 3/16" before it struck the padded pin and really started to turn the next plate in the stack. Devious, and effective. The padded pins could be repositioned to change the distance before contact so even a thief who knew the concept couldn't predict exactly how far off the 'click' was from real motion.



And finally, the last photo shows the lock in working position. To the right of the lock is a tall rectangular plate with a large bolt at each corner securing it to the horizontal drawbars and two bolts (seen partially backed out) diagonally opposed to one another near the center of the plate. These two bolts secured a plate with attached arm (seen inside the vault at the far left of the photo) that was aligned with the hole in the timelock itself. When the timelock was 'closed' the hole was blocked and the bars could not be withdrawn. The red areas around the door are a felt material that sealed the vault pretty well from dust and debris. I guess if the outside got blown they didn't want the money getting dirty!

The pictures aren't the best. They were taken in 2003 with a fairly low resolution camera (at least by today's standards). The safe still lives in the basement of my grandfather's (former) home in Burnsville, West Virginia where it will likely be as long as the house is standing. The walls are double eight-inch concrete block with filled cores, and the floor and ceiling are eight-inch double pours (four inches each) of reinforced concrete. The safe is bigger than the doorway, so it's not going anywhere without a lot of effort. While I don't doubt that the family would sell, the cost of removing it from the basement (and repairing the damage!) would likely be far more than any rational person would pay. It certainly kept me from giving it more than a passing thought.

Once again, my thanks to all here (particularly OldLock) for all your help. I hope these views of the mechanism "in situ" are of interest.

--- Ed

[oldlock]

Nice safe, thanks for the pictures it all helps to add to the knowledge base.

The combination locks are collectors items too - although far, far harder to remove from the safes complete :)

[elp2tlh]

Hmmm...

Enough of a collectors item to justify a 13-hour trip (each way)?

There would be a total of four of them (outer doors, inner doors, time vault, second time vault) and I actually think I could remove them with about an hour's work each.

They would need to go for about $500 each to justify the trip, expenses, and some reasonable margin of profit.

What say you, master of old locks?

--- Ed