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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2018
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    Country: France

    Default milners curiosity or not ?

    hi, found this original advertisement on the internal door panel. don't know if this is something rare. from exhibition model ? shop model or some customer models have been sold as well ? i am very exiting with it !
    need to remove the lock because the key is lost and found another something strange : pieces of wood whose function i do not understand

    thanks for details
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails interieur porte.jpg   bois milners.jpg  

  2. #2
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    Country: Bulgaria

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    The wood might be there to fill in the space. This would reduce the amount of blasting powder which could be trickled into the lock case and thereby improve security.

  3. #3
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    Feb 2018
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    Country: France

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    I didn’t have think about that
    Merci beaucoup chubby

  4. #4
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    Country: Great Britain

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubby View Post
    The wood might be there to fill in the space. This would reduce the amount of blasting powder which could be trickled into the lock case and thereby improve security.
    You're 'bang on' there Chubby.
    Didn't make any difference though when High Explosives came into use.
    Last edited by Huw Eastwood; 08-11-18 at 11:29 AM.

  5. #5
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    HE is scary stuff. The sheer power of it is awesome. That's why I always site AEDS as far from the lock as I can get them.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
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    1,754
    Country: Wales

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chubby View Post
    HE is scary stuff. The sheer power of it is awesome. That's why I always site AEDS as far from the lock as I can get them.
    Chubby, what you say about siting retro-fitted AEDs might make sense in theory but unless the entire safe is designed and constructed to match such attack, the remains of your AEDs will be scattered as far around the car park as the rest of the bits of the safe. No matter where in the door you position them. The same goes for bankers/treasury grade safes when enough HE is used. It's scary stuff indeed.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huw Eastwood View Post
    Chubby, what you say about siting retro-fitted AEDs might make sense in theory but unless the entire safe is designed and constructed to match such attack, the remains of your AEDs will be scattered as far around the car park as the rest of the bits of the safe. No matter where in the door you position them. The same goes for bankers/treasury grade safes when enough HE is used. It's scary stuff indeed.

    I see what Chubby's getting at Huw. The placing of charges such as Gelignite can only be accomplished through the keyway, punched out CK lock spindle hole, or in a gap created between the door and the body. This would be unlikely to exceed an ounce in the first two instances and a little more in an edge blowing. If the resultant detonation did not create an alarm, a second much heavier charge could of course be applied to the space vacated by the lock using a prophylactic.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Explosive condom.jpg 
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ID:	20411 As you will remember Huw from the photograph of the Double Door Hobbs Hart on my website, if the charge is great enough and the site isolated enough, something has to give but I've never yet seen that apply to a more modern top grade safe. Yet.

  8. #8
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    Dec 2009
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    I remember hearing a story, about wood in Milner door pans, many years ago. Apparently, one method of opening some of their earlier safes, was to locate the six lock fixing bolts, where they come through to the outer surface of the door, and to knock them out with a hammer and punch, so the lock falls to the bottom of the door pan. Sounds like a long and noisy process, but possible. Maybe a drill would have been better, assuming they weren't hardened. The closely fitting wood keeps the lock roughly in place, so the door bolts can't be withdrawn. Some angle iron around the lock, fixed to the door pan, would have achieved the same result, so I don't know if the story is true.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by magpie View Post
    I remember hearing a story, about wood in Milner door pans, many years ago. Apparently, one method of opening some of their earlier safes, was to locate the six lock fixing bolts, where they come through to the outer surface of the door, and to knock them out with a hammer and punch, so the lock falls to the bottom of the door pan. Sounds like a long and noisy process, but possible. Maybe a drill would have been better, assuming they weren't hardened. The closely fitting wood keeps the lock roughly in place, so the door bolts can't be withdrawn. Some angle iron around the lock, fixed to the door pan, would have achieved the same result, so I don't know if the story is true.
    Yes Magpie, the story is more or less true. In earlier times safe mechanics as they were then called, carried templates of Milner and Ratner locks which enabled them to locate each of the six fixing bolts with reference from the keyhole. Punching out without pre-drilling sounds unrealistic. Having centre-punched each position it usually revealed the end of the blind hole into which the bolt was fixed and which was then drilled with a 5/16th to a depth which cleared the door plate and the hard plate. It was then simple to punch out each bolt.

    The Milner safes with wooden inserts were only produced for a short time from 1854 as they were seriously criticised by rival Geo.Price as being more susceptible to gunpowder attack where the charge would be more confined within the wood. Incidentally the lock which Milner was using at this early stage was the Hobbs made gunpowder-proof Milner Patent also of 1854 with different profile and most unusually locked up.

    So, while the wooden inserts would have prevented the Hobbs lock from disengagement, this would only have applied for a very short period.

    Lastly, at that time the six holes would have had to be drilled by belly-brace and hand hardened spade drills. From personal experience I know how difficult this can be when there is no power on the premises even when using modern twist drills but with a hand-drill.

    P.S. In later years Milner bolted a pressed steel shroud on top of their locks in their List 3 qualities to over come this weakness. Very frustrating if you've already drilled off the lock.

  10. #10
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    Perhaps Tom might have a point when he suggests the possibility of the wooden blocks being a later addition?

    Looking at Stephane's photo and in particular at the wood in the lower half, focus directly below where the tail-bar slides on the guide and bracket (the wood has been cut to fit under it). I would expect to see a lot of staining there from 150+ years of rust and fine powder falling down from the abrasive action above. Instead, it looks one of the cleanest areas of wood in the entire door !

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