Welcome to our world exploring the Historical, Political and Technological aspects of Locks, Keys and Safes

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  1. #61
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    Default Ah, cute

    Quote Originally Posted by Cepasaccus View Post
    AED is an "anti-explosion device" aka relocker. It is a device which blocks the bolt work when safe is attacked by brute force.
    Thank you, so what happens after that eventuality, no one can get in?
    I have read something about relockers, but they don't really explain the aftermath.

    Not a requirement in my case. Steve.

  2. #62
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    Default

    You keep a note of exactly where the AED is, or more probably where the bolts or rivets holding the AED are. This gives you a drilling point if the AED is ever fired.

    Your safe is just a few years before AEDs started to be used.

  3. #63
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    Default AED's

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubby View Post
    You keep a note of exactly where the AED is, or more probably where the bolts or rivets holding the AED are. This gives you a drilling point if the AED is ever fired.

    Your safe is just a few years before AEDs started to be used.
    Thank you for that, actually rather glad my safe doesn't have one then. Although in use commercially it makes sense. Which would then be followed by a replacement safe presumably.

  4. #64
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    Default

    No new safe. Simply make good the damage. I have drilled out the fixing bolts on a special job, tapped the holes for the next sized bolts and replaced the original AED, but that was a very unusual job!

    On high security safes the AEDs would be welded in place and not designed with simple drill points. Also sometimes at least 1 AED is placed "at random". In fact it isn't random, but is any one of a number of places where it could be. Then there can be a lot of cutting involved and one has to weigh up the costs of repairing the door or replacing the unit. If a "cut and shut" has been done on the door some insurance companies wouldn't give full cash coverage on the unit afterwards. So that is another feature to consider.

  5. #65
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    Default Relocking devices.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve48 View Post
    Thank you for that, actually rather glad my safe doesn't have one then. Although in use commercially it makes sense. Which would then be followed by a replacement safe presumably.
    Steve, in fact your safe does not require a relocking device anyway. With 4 way boltwork such as yours if a high explosive charge is sufficient to remove the lock entirely the surrounding boltwork and operating follower will be so distorted and disconnected as to preclude release. In such circumstances I have never known the perpetrator to spend any subsequent time attempting to release the mechanism. That was why my presence was required and to remove any remaining explosive substances.

    As far as I can gather, the Ratner Safe Company was the first to use a device specifically to relock the boltwork if the keylock was destroyed by high explosives inserted into the lock. In 1913 they fitted a 'dead' device which they called the 'safety bolt' which was attached by a wire held by compression under the lock until the lock was removed.
    This was significantly improved in 1918 by a swivelling rocker bolt operated in conjunction with the unlocking of the keylock. When locked, the 'safety bolt' blocked any movement of the boltwork, in other words, it was 'live'.

    The attached illustration shows the boltcase mechanism of the Grade 3 Ratner which had 1 dead (at the bottom) and the live at the top blocking the boltwork even before the lock had been blown off,
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Ratner G 3 'safety bolt'.jpg 
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ID:	19871 In such a small safe it had been of necessity that the dead device was in too close proximity to the force of the explosion and rendered inoperative. This applies to most of the safes of today but since explosives are most unlikely to be used (apart from gas attacks on ATMs) it is unlikely they will ever be asked to perform.
    In most cases when the live relocker was released the safe doors were removed for repair and have of occassion been subjected to a second attempt - also unsuccessful.
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Regal Cinema  19th Aug 1952  2nd attempt.jpg 
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Size:	34.4 KB 
ID:	19872 1952.

    Some more trivia: London Trades Directories.
    1870 Safe Makers - Samuel Whitfield & Son, 97 Cheapside.
    1900 Fireproof Box Makers - Fred.Whitfield, 11& 12 St Andrews Hill, EC

  6. #66
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    Default

    Of course, although I think of them as AEDs, relocker is the better term. This is because any method for disturbing the lock will result in them being activated. With a glass plate in the equation, even injudicious drilling will have the same effect.

  7. #67
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    Default Re-lockers etc

    Thank you both, all very interesting.

    Looking at Safeman's first illustration in comparison to the internals of mine, I can see your point. In my safe there inst much in the way of spare room adjacent to the lock, so if it was exploded all it would do would be to get in the way and foul everything up. Whereas in your illustration there is a lot of empty space. But either way damaging the mechanism is to my mind more likely to prevent opening than aid it.

    The damage shown is quite extensive, also impressive that their efforts didn't succeed...

    Steve

  8. #68
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    Default

    For years one leading manufacturer used to claim that their interlocking bolt corners were in themselves an AED. I suppose they were, in a way.

    The point is if someone has used explosives, or oxygen cutting equipment, is likely to come across big problems unless they know exactly what to do. I have seen doors blown almost double, which have not yielded, where the design was sound. I have seen a banded Milner (I think) not unlike yours, where the bad guys had ended up trying to mely through the door and gave up when they ran out of bottled oxygen.

    A well made safe with 3 or 4 way boltwork is generally a fairly tough cookie, despite what you might see in the movies!

  9. #69
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    Default Oh yes indeed "Movies"

    Quote Originally Posted by Chubby View Post
    For years one leading manufacturer used to claim that their interlocking bolt corners were in themselves an AED. I suppose they were, in a way.

    The point is if someone has used explosives, or oxygen cutting equipment, is likely to come across big problems unless they know exactly what to do. I have seen doors blown almost double, which have not yielded, where the design was sound. I have seen a banded Milner (I think) not unlike yours, where the bad guys had ended up trying to mely through the door and gave up when they ran out of bottled oxygen.

    A well made safe with 3 or 4 way boltwork is generally a fairly tough cookie, despite what you might see in the movies!
    Having spent a life time in industry, and used what would be thousands of miles of welding rods, both oxy and stick. Plus burning gear and indeed smithing. It never fails to amuse me to see what the movie makers consider to be realism....and just how blatantly wrong it so often is. But at times it is also that they don't want to teach criminals via a film......... and that's food for thought too.

    Steve

  10. #70
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    Default

    I think you are ascribing motives to movie makers, which simply aren't there. They get it wrong, because they get it wrong. They want a spectacle rather than an accurate representation of truth!

    I must have seen tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition fired. Many of these have struck metal. Never, ever, have I seen a single one strike a spark. Generally the stuff is jacketed in copper, so how would it spark? (I know some modern rounds are steel jacketed). Yet in the films the rounds almost invariably strike sparks.

    I could go on, but the thread is already OT and I apologise to the op for hijacking it.

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