Herring and Co. Bankers safe fresh out of the garage

[vytautus]

I knew I would get you there! Did you read the Newspaper clipping? The second one. I don't know if it is exactly true to the standards of modern welding but that is what they called it.

[Tom Gordon]

I knew I would get you there! Did you read the Newspaper clipping? The second one. I don't know if it is exactly true to the standards of modern welding but that is what they called it.

I am tentatively quizzacle about the probability of them being Mig welded too. Welding doesn't have to mean our modern interpretation of the word though.

[Doug MacQueen]

At that time welding referred to forge welding. The safe was primarily made of steel plates (say 1/2" thick) laminated together with rivets or screws. Some of these laminated plates where then themselves probably made up of thin sheets of high manganese Franklinite iron and wrought iron forge welded together. At least that is how I see the construction. Later forge welded plates became known as 3,5, and 7 ply steel. I think the claim against any iron meant common gray cast iron.

[Doug MacQueen]

I know that Matt Lamborn has a larger but similar safe in his garage. I will take some pictures when I go there in the next few days. As far as manipulation goes, it could be a tough one. I would not be overly concerned about drilling. Those are key change locks so easily scoped from the side.

[vytautus]

Tom, I agree most definitely not Mig welded. When I get the seam cleaned up I will see what lies beneath and post some photos. Regardless of the welding and how they defined it the seam is unusual compared to other safes this age probabally why it cost so much at the time.

[NigelKTolley]

One bit of MIG welding on an old safe could easily be a repair from an attack. Especially if it is an expensive safe.

I look forward to more details.

[vytautus]

If the link comes through here is how Herring made their banker and burglar safes in 1888. There is even a cut of a 3 door bankers safe similar to the one that started this thread on page 690. If the Link does not work google: Appletons' Cyclopaedia of Apllied Mechanics 1888 page 689. They also have a few other makes featured in the safe section. Some very interesting information.

https://books.google.com/books?id=pv...q=safe&f=false

[Doug MacQueen]

Good find on that. I know of one possible way to determine if it was made in 1872. If it has a time lock built into the boltwork, then it would not be that early. Safes that early, if they are found with timelocks, had the time locks added on over the boltwork. This may not be true on large chests and vault doors, but is on small chests where available space is at a premium. Of course it may not have have any time lock at all. Also let me describe a little about forge welding. Unlike modern common welding methods except spot welding, no filler metal is used, so you will not see a bead. In fact ideally, you don' t see a seam. Wrought iron forge welds considerably easier than low carbon steel, making it ideal for the welded outer angles described. The parts are brought up to a white heat just short of melting, and then hammered or pressed together. If modern welding methods ( mig, tig, gas, stick) were used on safes in the 1870' s or even the 90' s, all the seams would have been filled and then generally ground smooth, to avoid detection. Back then putty was commonly used to cover up seams and defects.

[vytautus]

Thanks, Doug

I will look for that when I get it open. It is kind of a problem here in Montana. Not many smiths who can guarantee their work when it comes to antique safes. I don't want a wayward bit taking out the lock or bronze lock cover. If the safe is later I found another newspaper clipping of the same Bank ordering one in 1879 for the Butte Montana branch. From 1870- 1890 it seems 3 Montana banks had theses safes. Deer Lodge ordered 1872, Helena ordered 1883 and Butte 1879. It seems they were kind of a status symbol to prove how safe your money or gold bullion was. Not to mention they were a complete mechanical marvel for the day.

[Doug MacQueen]

I did find an inside picture of Matt' s Herring but no outside picture. His was made later as it does have an area dedicated for the time lock, although not installed in this picture. Another safe, with both outside and inside pics, show an add on mounting for a timelock, which is also missing. Granted, having a timelock added on does not establish it' s age. And then a drawing of another chest with a dedicated area for the time lock, putting it in the latter 1870' s or later.