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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2014
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    Carlisle, England.
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    Country: England

    Default R Tanns safe plaque.

    Hi all, just acquired a safe plate/plaque off fleaBay and wondered if it is legitimate or not. I read that Robert Tann started up on his own making cheap low quality safes so I took a chance on buying. I've never came across this warrent design before. The plaque seems of about the right age and wear but it just seems to be lacking when I compare it to other defiance plaques. Any help as usual would be gratefully appreciated.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails image.jpeg   image.jpeg   image.jpeg   image.jpeg  

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
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    Country: Wales

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    Hello Warren, long time no hear!

    A year or so back there was a small Indian foundry casting repro safe brasses and bronzes in his 'back yard shop' and selling them as a business on eBay from India. Not good, a bit of a shock to say the least, but he was in all fairness clear in how he sold them at the time- he described and listed them as repros, and wasn't trying to make out they were original or antique.

    The can of worms gets opened when people buy them (from worldwide) and then sell them on, as the Indian description and reproduction title is often dropped, and swapped for the typical 'I'm no expert' and 'looks like it's old or antique' sort of descriptions that we are all used to seeing on eBay.

    What struck me was that they hadn't picked out typical makers you'd expect them to copy, nor were they extremely rare examples. They were the lesser known and slightly obscure names which seemed a bit odd.

    From an ID perspective the clues were in the general finish and dulled looking castings. They lacked the sharpness, definition and precise edges around the motifs and lettering you'd expect to see on most original examples.

    Robert Tann was I'm pretty sure one of the copies they did but not 100% sure on your example there though- I'm not into them enough to determine minor Warrant and motif details etc so I'll play it safe and sit on the fence...albeit perhaps leaning more towards the Indian side :-(

    Anyway Ill have to catch up with a PM- often wondered the outcome of your GP mystery 'masonic' key

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
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    Aberdeenshire
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    Country: Great Britain

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    Max, you have really enlightened me - fake castings, well I never!

    I knew I was living in the past and was initially incredulous until I took a closer look at Warren's plate. The cypher looks OK but could have been incorporated in the mould from an original whereas under comparison the lettering is childlike in its execution.

    Regarding the Royal Cypher, it was not illegal at the time to imply that a warrant had been granted and was used by many makers inappropriately.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
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    Devon UK
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    Country: UK

    Default Quite a lot of difference in the quality is clear here...

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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by safeman View Post
    Max, you have really enlightened me - fake castings, well I never!

    I knew I was living in the past and was initially incredulous until I took a closer look at Warren's plate. The cypher looks OK but could have been incorporated in the mould from an original whereas under comparison the lettering is childlike in its execution.

    Regarding the Royal Cypher, it was not illegal at the time to imply that a warrant had been granted and was used by many makers inappropriately.
    We all see the endless reproduction keys and padlocks on here, but the first real disbelief for me with anything safe related was about 12 or 13 years ago, seeing a sudden overnight glut of beautifully ornate parlour and boudoir safes made by seemingly typical European makers back in the day- they were actually modern repros being made in Indonesia and then sold online around the World by several dealers.

    Next up, and a lot closer to home, were the reproductions of the cast brass clenched fist/bar handles characteristic of the old Samuel Withers safes.
    It quickly became obvious someone in the UK Midlands was knocking them out by the shed-full and auctioning them off one by one, listing another identical handle as soon as the last one was sold.

    All this has been an eye opener to say the least, and not the sort of things anyone would expect to be copied. Seeing the popularity of the brass safe plaques I suppose it seems almost inevitable that they'd be copied sooner or later.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Carlisle, England.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxVaultage View Post
    We all see the endless reproduction keys and padlocks on here, but the first real disbelief for me with anything safe related was about 12 or 13 years ago, seeing a sudden overnight glut of beautifully ornate parlour and boudoir safes made by seemingly typical European makers back in the day- they were actually modern repros being made in Indonesia and then sold online around the World by several dealers.

    Next up, and a lot closer to home, were the reproductions of the cast brass clenched fist/bar handles characteristic of the old Samuel Withers safes.
    It quickly became obvious someone in the UK Midlands was knocking them out by the shed-full and auctioning them off one by one, listing another identical handle as soon as the last one was sold.

    All this has been an eye opener to say the least, and not the sort of things anyone would expect to be copied. Seeing the popularity of the brass safe plaques I suppose it seems almost inevitable that they'd be copied sooner or later.
    I'm quite pleased I've finally got me a fake, and it only cost me £12 (you couldn't buy a bar a meal and a pint for that in our local). Other than a shed in Halifax I wonder where the warrant was copied from, or do copiers actually chip away happily and then make a mould themselves? It reminds me of them old paintings of cows and horses done for proud owners in the 16 or 1700s, the ones that look like a shoe box has been used as a template. I should maybe raise a glass to the fact it's my 1st in 300, every good collection should have one.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    Wild West Woolwich
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren63 View Post
    I'm quite pleased I've finally got me a fake, and it only cost me £12 ..........., every good collection should have one.
    Yes, and it still looks nice on the wall. :)

    The clue for me is that it does not look as though it has ever been screwed to anything.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2014
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parautoptic View Post
    Yes, and it still looks nice on the wall. :)

    The clue for me is that it does not look as though it has ever been screwed to anything.
    Yes it does look to have had little use. A large percentage of my collection have scratches knocks and dents. Come to mention it the screw holes are extremely small too. I should maybe start collecting dodgy plaques as a sideline, at least it would cut the chance of being dissapointed in half.

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