How do I get wheel off the dial shaft of this safe lock? (photo)

[gypsydoctor]

I want to change the combination on an old safe. The shaft from the dial is threaded into the main "driving" wheel but there is a stout steel pin that runs through the "screwdriver" slot in the end of the shaft and the brass wheel. How do I get the wheel off the shaft to get at the wheels behind it which appear to have movable pins screwed into them?

And what brand of lock is this?

[Tom Gordon]

I know very little indeed about American locks but looking at the picture, I would guess that the pin is infact a T shaped pin, which also runs down the spindle. If it was pulled straight out, parallel to the shaft, the central brass part could unscrew, which would release the lock wheels.

[gypsydoctor]

Great suggestion. I used a sharp point to pry each end outward but it was just a straight bar that was tightly pressed in, not a T shape, which I was expecting.

(The bar cannot fall straight out because of a plate that covers it, held on with 2 small screws, not shown in the photo. It cannot slide sideways because of a steel ring, also not shown, that goes around the raised brass area where the bar sits, and is held there by the plate and 2 screws. The steel ring carries a pin that goes through one of the 9 holes in the brass and helps set the combination.)

[wylk]

That is indeed an interesting lock. I made a quick pass through the book "American Genius" and did not see anything like it.

Pictures of the safe showing the door's outside, plus a close-up of the dial, might yield a little more information.

[David Hovey]

That is indeed an interesting lock. I made a quick pass through the book "American Genius" and did not see anything like it.

Pictures of the safe showing the door's outside, plus a close-up of the dial, might yield a little more information.

Victor Safe;

The Victor / Yale lock debate. Some say this comb lock was mfg by Yale some say it's a Victor lock.
My findings have been it's a Yale L2 comb lock.

DH

[Doug MacQueen]

Just to throw a little more light on who might have made the lock, it was designed by Jacob Baum, who at the time worked for Victor. Pat. # 364,467 June 7, 1887. While it may well have been manufactured by Yale for Victor, it has always seemed a little crude to have been coming out of the Yale factory. Doug

[gypsydoctor]

Thanks for all the info. Here are some photos. The safe is marked "J Moreau & Son, Manchester, N. H."

The dial is stamped 293645 and has 100 positions.

The combination discs only seem to allow 8 number choices, each being 1/9th of a rotation (11 numbers on the dial). The screwed-in pins' positions were identical on all three wheels, presumably a factory setting. Changing those pins is a chore because it involves removing the pressed-in pin that I was initially asking about, plus some careful arithmetical figuring.

The easy but limited way to change the combination is to remove the 2 screws and brass disc, and then move the outer steel ring to one of 9 positions, each 1/10th of a rotation. Changing it would change each number of the combination by the same multiple of 10. I'll bet there are lots of these safes around with only 9 different "semi-factory" combinations.

There is a series of YouTube videos on restoring a Victor safe with this lock. They gave up on the steel pin that I was having trouble with, and removed it with a Dremel tool. :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbrPWpq5i-g

[gypsydoctor]

Things I learned while trying to set the combination on this lock.

There are 3 spacers between the wheels, with keys to keep them from turning. The thin one goes on the outside, after the C-clip that holds the wheels in place.

Successive numbers in the combination cannot be closer than about 20. There's probably no way to get around this. The width of the movable screw/pins just takes up the space.

You can't easily use any numbers you want. The pins in the discs are spaced about 11 numbers apart and you can only fudge a number about 3 points or so in either direction. It's useful to drill and tap 3 or 4 extra screw holes half-way between some holes on the second wheel, and then you can probably get close to what you want. The holes are threaded 8-36 which is not the same as your common 8-32 tap.

You can fine-tune the third number by moving the outer screw stop on the third wheel and also the movable pin on the drive wheel, since one has 9 positions and the other has 10 positions.

There are two slots in the back of the drive wheel where the steel pin sits that locks the drive shaft in place. The alternate slot is apparently used when you want the third number of the combination to be about 20 or less, to allow for some rotation to pull back the bolt.