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  1. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewa View Post
    Newby.


    I've managed to successfully make the bit larger on a few keys, using solder, filing it back, and then recutting the key but the finished product is silver. Is there another way that this can be done which is easier, and/or does anyone know how to change the colour of solder to a darker shade?

    Try a stained glass supply store They have a solution used to make the silver color of solder look darker and more antique if you keep using solder.
    BBE.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
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    Country: Canada

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    Quote Originally Posted by oldlock View Post
    Silver soldering is a bit of an art. Add to which joining dissimilar materials can be more complex still.

    Pre-fluxed rods are a PIA in my opinion.

    Whereabouts are you in Aus ?
    It is really an art. Silver soldering/brazing is a process where two or more parts are joined by melting and flowing filler metal.

  3. #13
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    Apr 2016
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    Country: Australia

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    Yes, I know....it's currently not working for me, but I am fortunately distracted by other projects ATM
    A

  4. #14
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    Oct 2010
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    Tonawanda, NY, USA
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    Country: United States

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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewa View Post
    Yes, I know....it's currently not working for me, but I am fortunately distracted by other projects ATM
    A
    I've had excellent results using the Harris Stay-Brite silver bearing solder kit with a propane torch, see link:
    http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/e...Brite-Kit.aspx

    Pete Schifferli

  5. #15
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    Aug 2013
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    Country: Wales

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pschiffe View Post
    I've had excellent results using the Harris Stay-Brite silver bearing solder kit with a propane torch, see link:
    http://www.harrisproductsgroup.com/e...Brite-Kit.aspx

    Pete Schifferli
    Thats just a low melt soft solder with a bit of silver added and a melting point of about a third of a decent hard silver solder like JM Silver-Flo or Easy-Flo.
    It's amazing the amount of confusion that's still prevalent even after Doug's summed it up in a nutshell.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
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    Cleveland, Ohio USA
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    I was taught hi temp silver soldering when I first started out in locksmithing. It has turned out to be the most important skill I learned once you get past the direct trade related skills of lock picking and impressioning. I remember buying some of that Stay-Brite solder thinking it was the same as what I had used in the shop. After all, it did say silver in the name. Disappointed with its strength caracteristics, I quickly learned to be careful in what I used. Generally speaking, at a minimum, the joint strength of a hi temp solder to the low temp solders is 5 to 1 and can be as high as 10 to1. It's only in recent years that I have learned the value of the low temp solders for certain low strength applications. Depending on the surface area of the joint, a low temp solder can have a great deal of strength. Tix solder, with it's 275 F. low temp melt can be used on tempered steel without adversly affecting the temper. As long as the joint doesn't see forces approaching 4,000 psi, it will proably work. On the other hand if it sees forces far higher, say 40,000 psi, use the hi temp type. Not all metals can be silver soldered, but I have soldered brass to stainless steel. I have always felt learning to use hi temp silver solder was easy to learn, but hard to master. Being mostly self taught, I am still learning.

  7. #17
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    Oct 2010
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    Tonawanda, NY, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug MacQueen View Post
    I was taught hi temp silver soldering when I first started out in locksmithing. It has turned out to be the most important skill I learned once you get past the direct trade related skills of lock picking and impressioning. I remember buying some of that Stay-Brite solder thinking it was the same as what I had used in the shop. After all, it did say silver in the name. Disappointed with its strength caracteristics, I quickly learned to be careful in what I used. Generally speaking, at a minimum, the joint strength of a hi temp solder to the low temp solders is 5 to 1 and can be as high as 10 to1. It's only in recent years that I have learned the value of the low temp solders for certain low strength applications. Depending on the surface area of the joint, a low temp solder can have a great deal of strength. Tix solder, with it's 275 F. low temp melt can be used on tempered steel without adversly affecting the temper. As long as the joint doesn't see forces approaching 4,000 psi, it will proably work. On the other hand if it sees forces far higher, say 40,000 psi, use the hi temp type. Not all metals can be silver soldered, but I have soldered brass to stainless steel. I have always felt learning to use hi temp silver solder was easy to learn, but hard to master. Being mostly self taught, I am still learning.
    Doug is correct of course, but the "low-melt" Stay-Brite is still excellent for some repair applications, very easy to use and you don't need any special equipment. "Hi-temp" silver soldering and brazing requires an oxy acetylene torch and the heat may actually melt some of the items you are attempting to repair, although it may certainly be preferable for certain applications. My two cents.

    Pete Schifferli

  8. #18
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    Aug 2013
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    Doug it was exactly the same for me after cutting keys it was the first 'proper' skill I learned, and have to say it's been one of the most valuable in so many applications. As a teenager I got into repairing and then building live steam locomotives so my experience grew no end doing repairs, making my own parts and eventually boiler making.

    I'm still using solder from stocks I bought twenty odd years ago, and still using the same torch set up which is probably as old as me. The burner nozzle that's fitted is the all rounder, the small one on the firebrick gives a precision pin point flame, and the bigger one that's stood ups the roarer for the bigger stuff:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The solders pictured cover a massive range from a Woods metal derivative with only 90 centigrade melt, through the soft ranges to the hard silver solders upto C4 brazing alloy which I think is around 800 centigrade, used for multi- stage joints.

    Hard solders are on the left on the firebricks, soft solders on the right. The blue roll is a real oddball- long obsolete LM15- a mid range high melt 'soft' in between the soft and hard ranges, was a ridiculous price from Johnson Mathey, back in the late 80's but worth it's weight when needed.

    The most versatile of the hard silver solders for lock and key work for me, without any doubt has been JM Easy-Flo, the all round King and also Easy-Flo2, although I'm since told they have all been changed now in line with European regs.
    The C4 alloy with the highest temp I only ever use for brazing fire tubes into the throat plates in coal fired boilers, the amount of heat needed is pretty fierce tbh, and way unnecessary for general lock and key work- does have a lovely distinctive brassy gold tint to it though as opposed to the pale silvery flash of the others.

    Like Doug has already said its horses for courses, they all have their place and it's a case of working out what's best for what you're doing and then practise. Doug Your summary you posted earlier in the thread, I thought was brilliant as you mentioned the importance of joint tolerance with the harder solders, something not critical with most soft solders but an aspect difficult for beginners as it calls for accurate filing and precise joints.

    Also worth noting for beginners, be patient bringing the work up to temperature, let the work melt the solder when ready and not the flame, it's critical with the harder silver solders as it's tempting to try dabbing the solder way too early and the resulting melted blobs will actually take an even higher temperature to re-melt, by which time the flux will have dissipated and it's all gone horribly wrong...

    Another final note for beginners, it's worth remembering you can't 'push' the solder into joints, it's drawn in by a capillary action and 'flashes' through when everything is just right, again it all comes with practice and needless to say experiment on mock set-ups rather than your most prized antique key!

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pschiffe View Post
    "Hi-temp" silver soldering and brazing requires an oxy acetylene torch and the heat may actually melt some of the items you are attempting to repair, although it may certainly be preferable for certain applications. My two cents.

    Pete Schifferli

    Pete, the vast majority of us who have been silver soldering and brazing (for three decades) have been doing so with Propane and similar gas set-ups. Im not even going to bother going into detail as this has been mentioned and established previously in other threads if not this one.

    What are you going to tell us next? That fire drills are for drilling holes in fire...

  10. #20
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    Oct 2009
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    Let me throw a little water on this fire. Here are pics of 2 flat steel keys silver soldered together. The whole process was maybe 5 minutes or so. It was done with Mapp gas.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_20170304_194321.jpg   IMG_20170304_194420.jpg   IMG_20170304_194547.jpg  

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