Welcome to our world exploring the Historical, Political and Technological aspects of Locks, Keys and Safes

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 23
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SWUK
    Posts
    110
    Country: UK

    Default Part of a Safe Lock for you to ID

    Found this part assembly of a Safe lock Which has most of its parts missing It looks like it could be a Chatwood, though thats just a guess as it as got a duel bolt platform could it be two key action?
    And the three brass lever springs are unusual too.
    I'd be interested to read any thoughts.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSC00917.JPG   DSC00918.JPG   DSC00919.JPG   DSC00920.JPG  

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SWUK
    Posts
    110
    Country: UK

    Default Lock I have that none of you know who made it

    Its strange that none of you can help me with the identification of this lock, It came into my possession from an old locksmith who had worked at Chubb, Ratner and John Tann OK I know that widens the scope of the lock it could be But I would like to try and rebuild this or perhaps someone else would if they have any ideas, one the other hand it could be a prototype that never got to production; making it unique!
    Thanks for you time Ant

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,754
    Country: Wales

    Default

    I'm surprised there's been no response at all, I thought a few would recognise it and there's two or three members whom I was half expecting would have one to show pictures, guess it must be a real oddball after all.

    Ant, have you tried the British safe engineers forum run by Keith- might be worth a try to reach additional active techs still out in the field. Not sure if he's a member on here though, he kindly invited me to join some years back but it was already a year or two after we'd closed our business. I think Alan Morgan is still an occasional visitor here, it was Alan that passed my details onto Keith, might be worth a try to see if any of their members recognise it- from what I recall it's a tightly closed forum with an annual fee but hopefully one of their members could post it up for you.

    Would be interesting to know what it is and exactly what's missing from it, better fire up the lathe and milling machine ready...

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio USA
    Posts
    1,433
    Country: United States

    Default

    I have already spent way too much time trying to visualize the missing parts and action of this lock, made more difficult without seeing the lower plate exposed. It doesn't ring any U.S. made bells, but it also may not even be Chubb, Ratner or Tann. Some sort of prep key was used I suppose. Even if it used the center pivoted lever a al Milner Ratner, isn't the possible lever pivot pin awfully close to the stump? At first I was thinking it was possibly pre-powder proof era but now I am thinking it is more likely much later. Max, what are your thoughts? Doug

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,754
    Country: Wales

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug MacQueen View Post
    I have already spent way too much time trying to visualize the missing parts and action of this lock, made more difficult without seeing the lower plate exposed. It doesn't ring any U.S. made bells, but it also may not even be Chubb, Ratner or Tann. Some sort of prep key was used I suppose. Even if it used the center pivoted lever a al Milner Ratner, isn't the possible lever pivot pin awfully close to the stump? At first I was thinking it was possibly pre-powder proof era but now I am thinking it is more likely much later. Max, what are your thoughts? Doug
    Doug I'm afraid I'm no use whatsoever on this, although I am intrigued by the lock and have to say I'm flattered that you've asked

    Like you, I've also spent way too long looking, in fact Ant sent me the pictures just before he posted here.

    I agree about the time scale for it, I'd also say this was well after the powder-proof era, the thing that ties me up in knots is that my familiarity with many other safe locks means i see similarities or potential likenesses in there with all of them, which doesn't help at all!

    Anyway, I can't help anymore than pick out the features of it that everyone else can see for themselves, but for what it's worth I'll point out what stands out to me.

    Here goes, and in no particular order-

    1- the hole for the pivot point (pin) of the key is big- really big. I mentioned this to Ant as I assume a very large brass curtain or bolt thrower of some sort is missing- but is it?
    2- the double talons have rather odd angles and radii on them. When you project the possible arc of the key (or curtain/thrower) it doesn't really match up to what you'd expect the shapes of the talon cut-outs to be.
    3- the bolt appears to have quite a long travel/throw compared to most safe locks, making the whole brass curtain, key arcs and talon shapes mystery even stranger.

    anyone still awake might want to stop reading here, unless you really like considering the internal parts of very unusual locks. Don't blame me if you've now lost the will to live.

    4- perhaps losing steam a bit now, but the actual 4 fixing/mounting holes look very small for what was presumably a high security lock. They appear only a little bigger than the cap screws that hold the cover on!
    5- all brass construction seems a bit unusual even for that era to me. Even in the golden days most used a cast iron case with brass or bronze bolt like Chatwood etc. Tann used all brass on their bankers locks much later, and some Stephen Cox had all brass locks, but I would think a minority and they're all I can think of right now.

    So, after a lot of thinking and pondering and checking of notes, basically come up with nothing really-
    Ratner in addition to the Milner patterns made an odd 10-lever Chatwood impregnable look-alike, which was single bitted and a bit unusual, and regards more obscure possibilities I considered makers like John Port of Manchester, but came up with nothing even remotely similar to this.

    Im glad it was the 7th of April when Ant originally posted this and not the 1st...

    Like I mentioned I thought there'd be a few on here who'd recognise it and also a few who actually have a lock for reference, but perhaps it just needs more time for more to see it.

    @Doug, I hope you get to see this at some time or other as I can't imagine many others wanting to read it. Plus I did warn you I was going to be no use at all !
    @chubby I apologise, and there was me saying you have a fixation for shear handles...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SWUK
    Posts
    110
    Country: UK

    Default More pictures of the mystery lock

    I have taken some more pictures of the assembly. The hole for the curtain/thrower is 1/2 inch in dia also some views where you can plainly see the centre dot marks on the underside of the secondary bolt plate where it was adjusted to stop extra travel I'm at a loss now of what more to do as as it is its just more junk laying about which eventually will go in the scrap box!
    I do remember the chap that I inherited this off mentioning a Tann letter lock? But I never heard of one being made by Tann, Chatwood yes as I have most of one of those. But thats not complete either!
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Underside view of lower platform .JPG   Lever springs assemby .JPG   Lock base .JPG   Underside of main bolt platform .jpg   Main Bolt platform .JPG  


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    SWUK
    Posts
    110
    Country: UK

    Default lock

    just had another thought about the size of the fixing holes,perhaps the whole plate assembly sits inside a cast block similar to the old Chatwood double bitted lock plus those holes in the bolt head were planly there to fix something to.
    Any more pondering and I will be nodding off too!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    73
    Country: UK

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ant View Post
    just had another thought about the size of the fixing holes,perhaps the whole plate assembly sits inside a cast block similar to the old Chatwood double bitted lock plus those holes in the bolt head were planly there to fix something to.
    Any more pondering and I will be nodding off too!
    Just to throw in my four penny worth. Possibly part of a Ratner Conical Combination Lock.
    Regards. Patent.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Bournemouth, UK
    Posts
    470
    Country: UK

    Default

    Is that the one with the concentric tubes, never heard it called a conical before Patent. Do you have a picture, Ive checked all my Ratner catalogues without success so suppose it was short lived.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    73
    Country: UK

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Morland View Post
    Is that the one with the concentric tubes, never heard it called a conical before Patent. Do you have a picture, Ive checked all my Ratner catalogues without success so suppose it was short lived.
    Hi Brian. You are spot on. I use the term "Conical" not because I can find a reference to this name in any Ratner catalogue but because I believe this was the name given to the lock by Ratner employees.
    Anyhow, pictures attached for all to discuss and comment.
    Patent
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Ratner Combo Lock Patent  Diagram.JPG   Ratner Combo Lock.jpg   Ratner Combo Internal.jpg  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •