Hobbs and Co keys identification

[Warren63]

Hi all , just acquired these keys and wondered if anyone could tell me of their use? The bows on these keys are massive, far bigger than any other keys in my collection. For that reason I'm thinking "big lock" possibly prison keys or maybe a big safe? They look similar except one seems to have the end cut off, probably a long time ago as there are no saw or file marks present. Why would it be cut off? The other key has an M on the bit so could that be a master? The sizes are 12 cm and 12.8cm the bows are 5cm wide and have Hobbs and co London on them. They were absolutely rusted up and have been polished by myself. Thanks for any help you kind persons can give.

[Huw Eastwood]

Hi Warren, these have got me thinking, the bits don't look heavy enough to be custodial keys, and since they're Hobbs, my guess is they could be grille/gate keys from a strong room. That's the day-gate they use behind the main door.

some are single sided operation, (non-symmetrical key) and left locked throughout the day while the main door is open, and just opened and locked from outside. Others are double sided operation (symmetrical key) where staff need to work in the strong room counting cash etc, and also need to lock themselves in for security. The day-gates gave daytime security without the need for locking and unlocking the main door every time access was needed.

just a thought though, that's what they strike me as, but they could well be something else.

[Warren63]

It never occurred to me that I should check the size of the bits on my prison keys so that's something I will check in future. Your right the bits on these are not as chunky. Good observation max considering I never put a head on picture of the bits. Any idea why one has been shortened? Thanks again for your help.

[Huw Eastwood]

Its the non symmetrical bit that's shorter on the end of the pin, and that would figure for single sided operation as the key will go in to the lock but then hit against the blank inside wall of the lock housing in the gate.

It's all down to clearances, but unlike lightweight steel doors which often have a bit of clearance around the lock in the cavity, strong room gates tend to be a tight fit. Any projection of the end of the pin beyond the back of the lock case will then prevent the key from going all the way into the lock itself. It's a reasonably common thing to have to cut a slice off the end of a key blank and then turn it off and chamfer it, if the pattern key looks exceptionally short like your one is there.

[gmanphotog]

Key looks about right to me for a detention lock. I have a similar key that appears to be somewhat older than yours. And I have the lock.














Your longer rounded key is a double sided locks, as mine is. These are passage locks and not used in Cells. More More than likely the shorter flat key of yours is for Prison Cell locks.


Its natural for manufacturers to have keys with varying flag sizes. My Sargent Greenleaf barrel and solid skeleton keys all have various flag shapes and barrel diameters, so you can't necessarily insert keys into similar locks. Its also natural for flag sizes to trend downward for more restrictive keyways. Moreover flags needn't be that heavy duty. One of the more popular early jail keys in America were the flat style keys manufactured by Sargent Greenleaf, Pauly and others. An their flags are much thinner than yours.


Here are some other early British detention locks. As you can see the Hobbs key is longer than typical. Most British keys are about 4 inches. The Hobbs are five inches or more. The flag, however compare to the Gibbon and Charles Smith & Co is smaller than the other two. But its still much thicker than my Pauly flat key.


Another difference between UK locks and American is they are much more likely to use some warding in combination with levers. My Charles Smith is completely warded. I have a feeling wards are used in the UK because British manufacturers are far more likely to use Master keying. The more warding the fewer privileges that key has.



(Pictured: Modern Gibbons Electro Lock key (top); Folger Adam; Hobbs; Charles Smith (white lock- completely warded); Gibbons early twentieth century (bottom)



Early Brit key flags compared: Gibbons: Charles Smith & Sons; Hobbs



An American Pauly Jail flat key for comparison




PS the last lever's spring on mine recently broke. Anyone out can repair it for me, preferably in the US?

[Huw Eastwood]

Oops looking at Warren's single sided short pin key, I should have sussed it from the warding. Thanks gman, it just goes to show that having strong room doors, safes and vault doors imprinted on the brain, isn't a good thing at all

The Hobbs still look relatively flimsy to me, are the keys hardened? I've got a couple of oldies somewhere, Chas Smith I think, but all I'm familiar with from repairing and servicing is the modern Chubb stuff, which seemed a fair bit chunkier and were Always beautifully and evenly hardened. Warren, from now on mate, don't listen to a word I say..

[gmanphotog]

It's real hard to tell without a side view of the flag. I can you my Hobbs despite having a smaller flag than just about all of my solid skeleton type keys, still looks very solid and impressive. My Gibbons has a much wider flag and my Charles Smith is somewhere in between.


However my Sargent - which is early twentieth century (1930 to 40's), has roughly the same thickness flag as my Hobbs. And as I mentioned Pauly flat keys, which have been around since the late 1800's are considerably thinner.


I would guess most jail keys are either hardened steel, iron, or brass. My Hobbs is made of hardened steel, as is my Charles Smith, I believe. The Gibbon looks like steel at first glance looks like steel, but appears to be an iron key coated with a metallic finish.


The gray key is the Sargent and is brass. The Pauly key is iron with chrome finish. Pauly was an iron manufacturer before they became a jail builder, so there is a lot of iron use in their early products. Sargent on the other hand used alot of brass. It's one way of telling the two flat key locks apart.





But I think flag thickness had less to do with durability and more to with restricting the keyway with odd shaped flags.


Also from what I can see, modern UK keyways are much smaller than older ones. I don't own any modern UK keys and have never ever seen one photographed. The British government seems to have put a solid lid on that. One time I understand a newspaper did show one, quite casually, while showing a guard doing rounds. Caused quite a stir.


But as you can see the flag for this keyway is shorter, but also narrower than my Hobbs. Even if the flag were shorter, it's too thick to fit.

[Warren63]

Thanks for that lesson on detention keys gman, I must be learning something to actually suggest it might have been a prison key. It was the size of the bow because it's so big it's sort of handle like. Do you have any info on Marley bros? I acquired one of their cell keys a while ago and know virtually nothing about them and cannot find anything other than a small mention in the Gazetteer. I've added a pic of it in one of my other posts so I won't add it again for fear of becoming a bore. But thanks again for your info and pics of locks.

[gmanphotog]

All that I know about Marley Bros is in this Lock Collector issue 30 article:


It appears Charles Smith and Sons folded into Marley Bros in the 1930's.

Prison locks in the UK seem to have settled on some standards for appearance and function by the 1850's, and have largely stuck to those standards, even till today.

They typically use a much larger form factor, roughly the size of an 8x10 sheet of page, than is typical in the US. The locks while having a large form factor, often aren't very deep ( a little over one inch and often have completely exposed rear sections with no back panel. They are designed for solid (often heavy wooden) doors and the door IS the back panel.

They often have spring activated TRUE deadbolts, that can be activated by a handle, button, or door frame trigger. The bolts shoot through powerfully, often with enough energy to also turn the handle as well. The locks usually have some sort of bolt position indicator, whether by the handle position or clear windows that display the lock's state.

The locks are often quite handsome with brass handle and escutcheons, and jet black japonned finishes. That is until decades (centuries?) of bad paint jobs take their toll.

The locks by Marley, I would imagine, would fit that format* in some form or fashion.

One company I can't find anything about is J T Dancer. The blackcountryhistory.org has several of their locks on their website, but frustratingly, nothing about the company itself.

http://blackcountryhistory.org/collections/search/?q="prison+cell+lock"&cb_submit=Search

My Hobbs prison is the only one by that company I've seen. There is a lock on display at the Ruthin Prison that I suspect is another Hobbs, but manufacturer name is obscured in the photo. But I believe it would say Hobbs & Co, London.

http://education.gtj.org.uk/en/item1/35240

[Warren63]

Thanks for all the info Gman,I've never seen it before. The keys are amazing. I can only imagine how much it would cost for craftsmanship like that nowadays. I liked the gibbons key of yours too, I have a couple but with quite basic shafts unlike yours. It amazes me how much craftsmanship was used on some of these keys. It wasn't until I looked at my Marley key under magnification that I realised the text was hand engraved. Thanks again.