Hatton Gardens

[oldlock]

Does anybody ever upgrade walls to resist more modern threats? I know some doors and safes are upgraded. That is one reason why a maintenance contract can be so useful to the original supplier. Adding deflector plates and such stuff at a later date.

Bit hard to upgrade a vault wall below ground level. And of questionable benefit against this type of attack with so much time to attack in.

Even more modern walls with extensive use of tangbar / spiral reinforcement etc can be cored in this way.

All one buys with safes, vaults and doors is time. If the attacker has enough time to spend unchallenged he will defeat any level of protection. Personally I would estimate that a vault of that period would be fine for the vast majority of risks, indeed the quality of the door and wall is probably far better than many made today.

[Huw Eastwood]

Yes it's definitely true that all a safe or vault buys is time, and in terms of the engineering and build quality that old 1940s Treasury door would I'm sure put most modern doors to shame.

But, as we've discussed before, these days it's all down to risks and assessment etc, and when Its impossible to know the potential value of contents as in the Hatton Garden case, I struggle with the concept of insurers just going along with it. My first thought would be they'd have thrown the book at them and insisted on the full monty so to speak, knowing that insurers don't like uncertainties and that they like paying out for big claims even less!

The door and walls were obviously adequate when installed for use serving the local diamond trade in the 1940s, but now it's being used in an application where the value and risks are immeasurable. Plus, It wasn't anywhere near the largest Chubb door available back in its day, and as safeman added the walls are built proportionately to the door.

Also worth considering that Chubb didn't pioneer their Cast Torch and Drill Resisting barrier material (for the doors) until the early 1960s, so that door is going to be laminated. I know which I'd sooner have... But like you say oldlock, it's possible to overcome any level of protection given enough time, so I guess it doesn't make a lot of difference. They would probably have got through even twice the thickness of concrete if it was 1970s 33 inch doors given enough time to do it.

Safeone, why the divorce? just install one anyway and say there's a nice bag or shoe shop inside, you could then use the emergency door as a feeding hatch

[Tom Gordon]

They don't seem too bothered about capturing them.
they are only offering £20000 and only then if it leads to the conviction of ALL of them - which after this time isn't going to ever happen.

[wylk]

Saw this on thereifixedit.com and it reminded me of Hatton Garden --

[Safeone]

tape looks a bit wide for Hatton Gardens !

[Safeone]

Seven arrested over the heist....... hope they are not forum members !

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-32799703

[safeman]

On the matter of strongroom upgrades it is quite feasible to vastly enhance the security of an existing vault by the addition of internal modular panels. Some space would be lost but the increase in overall security could be immeasurable.

For example, the qualities could range from lightweight Grade II to Grade IV (EN1143-1) or to heavy Grade IX to XII (EX) (CD) (EN1143-1). The latter indicates that the test included explosives and core drill.

This illustration is from an Underwriter's Laboratories Test UL291 on a Tann lightweight modular panel which was conducted in the open air, a luxury not normally available to criminals.

Equipment being used included a heavy Bosch breaker, in-line nozzle oxy-acetylene torch with fluxing rod, and a heavy disc cutter.

Regarding the door, my understanding is that the extremely successful Chubb Anti-Blowpipe material was developed in the 1920's and only considered for replacement in 1957, probably because of the increasing cost of the high chrome content. Different makers have had their preferences for barrier materials with Chubb on the one hand opting for their TDR and AA in the early 60's as a single line of defence, and Tann believing in the multi-barrier principal which forces the criminal to apply a variety of tools to overcome each layer. Physical exhaustion plays a larger part in the latter.

[Huw Eastwood]

Seven arrested over the heist....... hope they are not forum members

Hope not! Glad to see you're still here, I'm still here and safeman, so where's chubby?

Safeman, I wondered a while back about the possibilty of an additional modular vault built inside, but eventually put it to rest on the grounds of dimensions, odd sized old 'imperial' vaults and the limited available panel sizes etc. I thought there might also be complications with the floor, ceiling and around the door area. Now that you've mentioned it though Im curious If it's used as a viable option, As it definitely makes sense wherever possible- imagine if those guys at Hatton Garden had cored the first hole only to find a Chubb grade XII panel behind it...

[Redoubt]

There have been a few upgrades of existing vaults down here in NZ. It is very dependent on space, either inside or outside.
Old doors are dropped out and replaced with new custom doors to suit insurance requirements.
If panels are being used a good tape measure is required as these are custom fabricated to fit the inconsistent dimensions of the old cast Vault.
Other cases involve casting an entire new vault around the outside of the existing one.

I just got my EN standards out and here are the resistance time requirements for complete access using Diamond core and thermal lance for grade XIII, 4500RU.(complete access 350 mm diameter hole)

Diamond Core Drill machine up to 11000W, and Core Drill with length to 1000mm. 116 minutes of attack

Thermal Lance with oxygen consumption of up to 1500L/min, and 20 x 3m oxygen lances. 108 minutes of attack

Need a Good Alarm!

[Huw Eastwood]

I'd forgotten Chubbs anti-blowpipe barrier, and amazing it was developed in the 1920s, long long before my time! Safeman, you jogged my memory on that one, as thinking about it now can remember old archive pictures of it being poured molten into the doors, long before their TDR. Similar idea to the copper exposed in the Donsteel door being massacred over on the 'Old Mosler bank vault scrap or value' thread I would think.

Your Chubb and Tann references to their different approaches also brought back memories of Tanns 'Tanncrete I', 'Adamantium', 'Tanncrete II' etc. Amusing names for what was simply their concrete barrier!