Hobbs and co key and a couple of Chubbs

[Warren63]

Hi all, found this Hobbs key with an interesting looking bit, could anyone tell me anything about it such as could it be from a safe. The two chubbs I've had for a few years and I've just cleaned and polished on the buffer. I didn't actually realise they were the same design until I removed the rust from the small one. Any comments are greatly appreciated.

[oldlock]

I'd lay long odds that the key stamped Hobbs is actually for a early Chubb new patent (with wards) detector lock and was simply cut by a Hobbs engineer at some point in time.

[Warren63]

I was wondering whether it was possibly a mismatch as I have quite a few Hobbs safe keys and have never came across even a picture of this style/type of bit on a Hobbs. So am I correct in understanding what your saying is it was for a chubb lock and its been cut on a hobbs blank. ? By the way I took your advice Oldlock and polished up the large chubb key which I posted pics of last week and it's lookng much better. I thought the pitting might have spoiled it but it actually adds 'something' so thanks yet again.

[BBE]

Hi all, found this Hobbs key with an interesting looking bit, could anyone tell me anything about it such as could it be from a safe. The two chubbs I've had for a few years and I've just cleaned and polished on the buffer. I didn't actually realise they were the same design until I removed the rust from the small one. Any comments are greatly appreciated.

The symmetrical design on the bit usually indicates a door lock that allows the key to be used from either side of a door. Of course the small key would be for a very small door if that is what it is.
BBE.

[oldlock]

Search the site for : Chubb bridge

and you will find pictures of an original chubb key.

[Chubby]

The bigger ones remind me of the keys for the day gate of a strongroom.

[safeman]

For some mysterious reason I am unable to enlarge the thumbnails and am therefore unable to clearly
examine the image of the Hobbs key referred to.

However, I shall attach an illustration showing a small section of key styles and the one highlighted
would have been suitable for the Hobbs & Co.s "General" mortice lock which was available in from 3 to 6 levers.

[Huw Eastwood]

Some more nice keys there warren you don't see many of those. As already mentioned the symmetrical bit is one clue and the fact they have collars on the pin to act as a stop against the lock cover or case is another indicating 2 sided operation.

[Warren63]

Thanks for that Max. So am I correct in thinking keys with the collar (bridge ward) are only for doors to be used from both sides? and am I correct in thinking that all keys with collars were not for safes and only for locks to be accessed from both sides. Or are some safes fitted with bridge ward locks? I've actually confused myself with these questions so I hope they're understandable by everyone else.

[Huw Eastwood]

Yes it can get pretty confusing especially when there's so many terms in use.

i think I know what you mean though so here goes- number 1 first:

Yes, generally speaking, any key with a collar is intended for 2 sided operation. In a single sided lock, be it safe, cabinet, box etc the key goes in until it hits the back of the case. It therefore doesn't need a collar on the key at the front of the lock to act as a stop. But with a lock for 2 sided operation, both sides are normally open where the keyhole is straight through as on mortise, rim locks etc. the collar then hits the lock case on the one side or the cover on the other, to act as a stop. I made a point of saying generally speaking as there are exceptions though- there are some real oddballs out there which do break this tradition and can be single or double sided with or without collars, but I think it's safe to say they're a rarity with regard to our generalisation here. The shape of the key will always be the deciding factor as if the key has a collar but the cuts on the bit are random depths and spacings and not symmetrical, it cannot operate through the same keyhole from both sides.

A good modern example of this is the old Chubb 5 lever before it became the 3G114, discussed on another thread somewhere on here. It was primarily a standard 5 lever dead lock for double sided operation on timber doors, but Chubb also did single sided versions with non-symmetrical keys but still used the mortise blanks with collars. They also used them on a small wall safe which I think from memory they called the 'number 5', so here was a randomly cut mortise key, with a collar, but was not only single sided operation but did actually fit a safe! There are other exceptions as well with staggered and offset keyholes etc but I can't think of any really early examples which would be bridge ward, but I'm sure there's some out there.

With regard to bridge ward locks on safes, early examples had box-of-wards locks and had heavily warded keys, mostly pipe keys of a large bore or gauge, but pin keys were used as well. These are quite different to the bridge ward mortise and rim keys with collars, but are similar in some respects and so often get confused. I've lost track of the countless antique keys I've seen on eBay which are obviously mortise or rim, being sold as a chest or safe key. Likewise early padlock keys can get mistaken for mini safe keys, but since there are no set borders it's often not possible to be 100% certain.

I hope This helps abit and that I haven't stated the obvious with things, if I think of anything else I'll add it and likewise just say if I haven't answered anything specific. I'm on a new iPad now and a post like this means I have to periodically stop to have a shave as the Father Christmas beard gets in the way lol. So much for progression, I'd have done this in 15 mins on the old laptop