Quote Originally Posted by MaxVaultage View Post
Yes it can get pretty confusing especially when there's so many terms in use.

i think I know what you mean though so here goes- number 1 first:

Yes, generally speaking, any key with a collar is intended for 2 sided operation. In a single sided lock, be it safe, cabinet, box etc the key goes in until it hits the back of the case. It therefore doesn't need a collar on the key at the front of the lock to act as a stop. But with a lock for 2 sided operation, both sides are normally open where the keyhole is straight through as on mortise, rim locks etc. the collar then hits the lock case on the one side or the cover on the other, to act as a stop. I made a point of saying generally speaking as there are exceptions though- there are some real oddballs out there which do break this tradition and can be single or double sided with or without collars, but I think it's safe to say they're a rarity with regard to our generalisation here. The shape of the key will always be the deciding factor as if the key has a collar but the cuts on the bit are random depths and spacings and not symmetrical, it cannot operate through the same keyhole from both sides.

A good modern example of this is the old Chubb 5 lever before it became the 3G114, discussed on another thread somewhere on here. It was primarily a standard 5 lever dead lock for double sided operation on timber doors, but Chubb also did single sided versions with non-symmetrical keys but still used the mortise blanks with collars. They also used them on a small wall safe which I think from memory they called the 'number 5', so here was a randomly cut mortise key, with a collar, but was not only single sided operation but did actually fit a safe! There are other exceptions as well with staggered and offset keyholes etc but I can't think of any really early examples which would be bridge ward, but I'm sure there's some out there.

With regard to bridge ward locks on safes, early examples had box-of-wards locks and had heavily warded keys, mostly pipe keys of a large bore or gauge, but pin keys were used as well. These are quite different to the bridge ward mortise and rim keys with collars, but are similar in some respects and so often get confused. I've lost track of the countless antique keys I've seen on eBay which are obviously mortise or rim, being sold as a chest or safe key. Likewise early padlock keys can get mistaken for mini safe keys, but since there are no set borders it's often not possible to be 100% certain.

I hope This helps abit and that I haven't stated the obvious with things, if I think of anything else I'll add it and likewise just say if I haven't answered anything specific. I'm on a new iPad now and a post like this means I have to periodically stop to have a shave as the Father Christmas beard gets in the way lol. So much for progression, I'd have done this in 15 mins on the old laptop
Thanks for that Max.That's the main problem of being a collector without having the expert knowledge. I try to only collect safe keys but inevitably I make mistakes that are pretty obvious to you guys but not to a newbie. As you have said before everything on eBay is advertised as jail/castle/safe/bank or railway but in reality very few are correct and the sellers are guessing or hoping for a result. Age is another category also that is quite often randomly guessed at. I am lucky to have access to your kind help and patience. I think in reality I like anything that looks old or technical and am learning slowly that mistakes are easily made. So thanks again for all your help.