Welcome to our world exploring the Historical, Political and Technological aspects of Locks, Keys and Safes

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 13

Thread: Is it a Mappin

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Carlisle, England.
    Posts
    272
    Country: England

    Default Is it a Mappin

    Hi all, I acquired some Whitfield safe keys and two in particular urged me to find out more. The keys were all Whitfield safe keys so I am presuming the wire bow is one also, there is a number on the shaft and I was wondering if this is an extremely old one compared to the others because I have never came across another with the wire bow on a Whitfield key? The other key has an extra projection for four more sliders coming out of the end and pictures I have seen seem to suggest this is a mappins key and I wondered if anyone could confirm this. As I have said before I am a collector who has very limited knowledge and any help that more experienced members can give is greatly appreciated. Big thanks.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1425986411356.jpg   1425986438470.jpg   1425986468899.jpg   1425986566014.jpg   1425986590732.jpg  


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cyberspace
    Posts
    1,357
    Country: Australia

    Default

    Re the wire bow, back then it may have been an option, however it's more likely it's a contemporary duplicate.

    The double stack key is nice, there are far more keys around than locks ! It is mappins patent. Different to cotterill and bramah. Quite a pain to make keys for and they don't tend to wear well in the examples I've worked on.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Carlisle, England.
    Posts
    272
    Country: England

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by oldlock View Post
    Re the wire bow, back then it may have been an option, however it's more likely it's a contemporary duplicate.

    The double stack key is nice, there are far more keys around than locks ! It is mappins patent. Different to cotterill and bramah. Quite a pain to make keys for and they don't tend to wear well in the examples I've worked on.
    Thanks once again Oldlock, it does look worn on the tip of the stack key end and more so than the usual part of the key as you stated. Did you ever come across any of the 18 slider locks mentioned in the Gazetteer or were they extremely rare? Were the early Whitfield keys actually stamped Mappins and were the Cotterill keys stamped with Whitfields name also or where they just a climax detector key without the Whitfield name? Sorry if I'm becoming a proverbial pain in the butt, I just can't get hold of this information anywhere on the internet or in any books I know of. Big THANKS

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,789
    Country: Wales

    Default

    Hi warren- first of all congrats on all those keys! They are nice examples- the Mappins is great and I haven't seen a wire bow Climax/Whitfield type before- more on that one later.

    Oldlock will know far more than me, but having had countless Climax, Whitfield's and Cotterill's pass through my hands I have to admit to never having a Mappin's, so I'm going to pass totally on those.

    I agree with oldlock on the wear aspects though- Bramah nailed it with the vertical sliders being pushed down by the key. All the others with radial sliders being pushed radially outwards (by the key) were never reliable locks- I've mentioned this before but they were notorious for sliders cracking over the slots and since each slider was individually sprung, the compression springs were small and prone to squashing and breaking midway. 25 years ago I used to hand make keys, turn new drill pins and hand file new sliders etc. The Late Great John Rattue 'Spring Man' was the only source we knew for springs, and with a new set of those I gave many a new lease of life. These days the labour alone would be many times what the lock or safe is worth and few would be prepared to pay. Seeing the smaller stepped extension on the end of the Mappins keys means I can only imagine what they were like..

    Sorry I can't answer all your questions but with regard to locks bearing just 'climax detector' there were many which copied and used the principle- in the 1980s there were hundreds of booming Working Mens Clubs here in the South Wales 'coal' valleys, and I used to see a lot of unmarked safes fitted with these locks. Usually very basic cast cylinders with sliders and with no actual 'detector' at all. I think from memory that Phillip's may have been one of the few safes that used them and was brave enough to mark their name on a plaque, but I might be wrong and Phillip's might have used a Cotterill. Most of the unnamed safes were typical square cornered construction with moulding on the door, and a fancy cast brass hexagonal knob handle. I think some of the bottom end British makers simply saw them as something different to fit and market, accompanied by the usual tongue in cheek claims of pick resistance and security.

    Your wire bow is a nice key, and like oldlock said it could well be a replacement copy. I've never seen a wire bow Climax type, but I still have quite a few antique blanks for them and for Bramah's, so this one's got me curious!

    All I can add is that the Climax blanks always seem to have the stepped stem and distinctive arch shaped bow, scalloped at the base where it joins the stem- bit like a shell shape, whereas all the Bramah types I have are straight stem and wire bow. That's not to say that you couldn't use a straight stem wire bow blank, turn it down to 'step' it, and then re-turn the fluting etc, but it wouldn't be the most straightforward option to take. Any such key once aged by 40 or 50 years would certainly be difficult to distinguish. It's the sort of 'dodge' I'd still do myself if I didn't have an exact match blank, but that doesn't mean it's not an unusual original, so case still open on that one?

    BTW I still have the Cotterill's Patent Climax Detector lock, with both original keys, which is also marked Wilson's Patent...just to confuse things a bit more lol...

    Sorry I can't be of more help. I'm sure someone into all the history and dates can come up with all the rest

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Carlisle, England.
    Posts
    272
    Country: England

    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxVaultage View Post
    Hi warren- first of all congrats on all those keys! They are nice examples- the Mappins is great and I haven't seen a wire bow Climax/Whitfield type before- more on that one later.

    Oldlock will know far more than me, but having had countless Climax, Whitfield's and Cotterill's pass through my hands I have to admit to never having a Mappin's, so I'm going to pass totally on those.

    I agree with oldlock on the weIt's a lovely lock Max, I like seeing other peoples treasuresaspects though- Bramah nailed it with the vertical sliders being pushed down by the key. All the others with radial sliders being pushed radially outwards (by the key) were never reliable locks- I've mentioned this before but they were notorious for sliders cracking over the slots and since each slider was individually sprung, the compression springs were small and prone to squashing and breaking midway. 25 years ago I used to hand make keys, turn new drill pins and hand file new sliders etc. The Late Great John Rattue 'Spring Man' was the only source we knew for springs, and with a new set of those I gave many a new lease of life. These days the labour alone would be many times what the lock or safe is worth and few would be prepared to pay. Seeing the smaller stepped extension on the end of the Mappins keys means I can only imagine what they were like..

    Sorry I can't answer all your questions but with regard to locks bearing just 'climax detector' there were many which copied and used the principle- in the 1980s there were hundreds of booming Working Mens Clubs here in the South Wales 'coal' valleys, and I used to see a lot of unmarked safes fitted with these locks. Usually very basic cast cylinders with sliders and with no actual 'detector' at all. I think from memory that Phillip's may have been one of the few safes that used them and was brave enough to mark their name on a plaque, but I might be wrong and Phillip's might have used a Cotterill. Most of the unnamed safes were typical square cornered construction with moulding on the door, and a fancy cast brass hexagonal knob handle. I think some of the bottom end British makers simply saw them as something different to fit and market, accompanied by the usual tongue in cheek claims of pick resistance and security.

    Your wire bow is a nice key, and like oldlock said it could well be a replacement copy. I've never seen a wire bow Climax type, but I still have quite a few antique blanks for them and for Bramah's, so this one's got me curious!

    All I can add is that the Climax blanks always seem to have the stepped stem and distinctive arch shaped bow, scalloped at the base where it joins the stem- bit like a shell shape, whereas all the Bramah types I have are straight stem and wire bow. That's not to say that you couldn't use a straight stem wire bow blank, turn it down to 'step' it, and then re-turn the fluting etc, but it wouldn't be the most straightforward option to take. Any such key once aged by 40 or 50 years would certainly be difficult to distinguish. It's the sort of 'dodge' I'd still do myself if I didn't have an exact match blank, but that doesn't mean it's not an unusual original, so case still open on that one?

    BTW I still have the Cotterill's Patent Climax Detector lock, with both original keys, which is also marked Wilson's Patent...just to confuse things a bit more lol...

    Sorry I can't be of more help. I'm sure someone into all the history and dates can come up with all the rest
    Thanks for that useful iformation Max, if it wasn't for yourself and Oldlocks explanations I would still be scratching my head. There's not anywhere a collector can get this information and it's truly invaluable. Could you tell me if the keys on your Wilson Cotterill lock are marked with Wilson and Cotterill or is it only on the lock itself?. I'm presuming it's only on the lock as you can only fit so much info on a small bow. It's a lovely lock Max, I enjoy looking at other collectors treasures! It's the next best thing to owning them yourself. Thanks again.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cyberspace
    Posts
    1,357
    Country: Australia

    Default

    Mappins patent locks basically used a bottom 'pin' with a top 'pin' (for pin say slider (maybe !!)) With the shear line between the inner and outer cores.

    They have a single spring wrapped around the core.

    I have a lock (somewhere) and will post some pictures when I find it.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,789
    Country: Wales

    Default

    Hi Warren yes you got it the keys are only marked E. Cotterill's Patent Birmingham on one side of the bow and Climax Detector on the other. Then on the lock the front of the cast brass nozzle has tiny Cotterill's Patent around the keyhole, and then the steel bolt has the E. Cotterill & Co, Wilson's Patent, Nine Slides, Birmingham.

    Yes your'e right there's not much info out there on any of these and sadly I know very little, but ask away whenever as hopefully between everyone you'll eventually get the answers.

    I'm not big on all the history and dates, that's never been my thing at all, but I have a lot of experience of working with things. I'm sure someone else will come up with the details of changes and the dates etc

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    293
    Country: UK

    Default Mappins lock

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Prescott View Post
    Mappins patent locks basically used a bottom 'pin' with a top 'pin' (for pin say slider (maybe !!)) With the shear line between the inner and outer cores.

    They have a single spring wrapped around the core.

    I have a lock (somewhere) and will post some pictures when I find it.
    This came from a safe previously used in a quarry to store explosive, mainly or solely black powder. I received from a retiring ironmonger/locksmith/tinsmith in the 1970s. His Grandfather had taken a shop with basement in a new Victorian shopping parade. As well as ironmongery, there was sheet-metal working, plumbing and gas-fitting, and electical work was added by his father in the 1930s.

    Couldn't remember when the safe was opened, 1960s sometime. There were four: 2xCotterill Climax, 1 Cotterill-Wilson, 1 Mappin.
    I have one old forged steel blank now being cut for the Mappin, which is only 4 'pin'. I am having great difficulty even pushing the key into the lock. I have one old Cotterill key (sadly not fitting any of my locks), and that also does not push in easily. Indeed not like Bramah.

    With my arthritic hip, it is now difficult to do bench work, so this is making slow progress, but thankfully only 4 pins.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Mappin 4pin drawer lock a.jpg   Mappin 4pin drawer lock b.jpg   Mappin 4pin drawer lock c w blank key.jpg  

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Cyberspace
    Posts
    1,357
    Country: Australia

    Default

    Never seen a mappins patent with only 4 guards. Odd.

    It's chicken and egg, I find that the key will not want to go in until it's already cut as the sharp edge on the blank does not move easily over the edge of the bottom guard / slider.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Posts
    1,789
    Country: Wales

    Default

    Not to mention there are countless different diameters for both the key shaft and the drill-pin, so first stage is strip the cylinder and check if the blank needs adjustment to the empty cylinder without any internal parts, as it's never going to push into the lock irrespective of the sliders, if the key shaft is slightly too big or the drill-pin bore too small ! As Paul oldlock says it's a catch 22 situation as the sliders make the key action difficult at the best of times, so you need to be certain it's only the sliders resisting the key being pushed in ,and not the fitting of the blank itself.

    Often the outside diameter of the key blank needs filing (and often eccentric too) and a rack of 0.1mm increment drills pretty much essential for sizing to drill-pins on old and worn antique locks like these.
    Once the blank fits you can then start cutting the key adding a single slider at a time...

    The blank you've got there is a generic for cotterills and climax detectors with their characteristic bow shape whereas the whitfields and mappin's usually had plain oval bows, but it will of course work the same as any other blank once correctly sized and cut. Had a box full of those climax blanks at one time !

    Your lock shouts Whitfield to me but only 4 sliders is definitely very odd in a larger sized lock like that.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 10 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 10 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •