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Thread: Is it a Mappin

  1. #1
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    Default Is it a Mappin

    Hi all, I acquired some Whitfield safe keys and two in particular urged me to find out more. The keys were all Whitfield safe keys so I am presuming the wire bow is one also, there is a number on the shaft and I was wondering if this is an extremely old one compared to the others because I have never came across another with the wire bow on a Whitfield key? The other key has an extra projection for four more sliders coming out of the end and pictures I have seen seem to suggest this is a mappins key and I wondered if anyone could confirm this. As I have said before I am a collector who has very limited knowledge and any help that more experienced members can give is greatly appreciated. Big thanks.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1425986411356.jpg   1425986438470.jpg   1425986468899.jpg   1425986566014.jpg   1425986590732.jpg  


  2. #2
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    Re the wire bow, back then it may have been an option, however it's more likely it's a contemporary duplicate.

    The double stack key is nice, there are far more keys around than locks ! It is mappins patent. Different to cotterill and bramah. Quite a pain to make keys for and they don't tend to wear well in the examples I've worked on.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldlock View Post
    Re the wire bow, back then it may have been an option, however it's more likely it's a contemporary duplicate.

    The double stack key is nice, there are far more keys around than locks ! It is mappins patent. Different to cotterill and bramah. Quite a pain to make keys for and they don't tend to wear well in the examples I've worked on.
    Thanks once again Oldlock, it does look worn on the tip of the stack key end and more so than the usual part of the key as you stated. Did you ever come across any of the 18 slider locks mentioned in the Gazetteer or were they extremely rare? Were the early Whitfield keys actually stamped Mappins and were the Cotterill keys stamped with Whitfields name also or where they just a climax detector key without the Whitfield name? Sorry if I'm becoming a proverbial pain in the butt, I just can't get hold of this information anywhere on the internet or in any books I know of. Big THANKS

  4. #4
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    Hi warren- first of all congrats on all those keys! They are nice examples- the Mappins is great and I haven't seen a wire bow Climax/Whitfield type before- more on that one later.

    Oldlock will know far more than me, but having had countless Climax, Whitfield's and Cotterill's pass through my hands I have to admit to never having a Mappin's, so I'm going to pass totally on those.

    I agree with oldlock on the wear aspects though- Bramah nailed it with the vertical sliders being pushed down by the key. All the others with radial sliders being pushed radially outwards (by the key) were never reliable locks- I've mentioned this before but they were notorious for sliders cracking over the slots and since each slider was individually sprung, the compression springs were small and prone to squashing and breaking midway. 25 years ago I used to hand make keys, turn new drill pins and hand file new sliders etc. The Late Great John Rattue 'Spring Man' was the only source we knew for springs, and with a new set of those I gave many a new lease of life. These days the labour alone would be many times what the lock or safe is worth and few would be prepared to pay. Seeing the smaller stepped extension on the end of the Mappins keys means I can only imagine what they were like..

    Sorry I can't answer all your questions but with regard to locks bearing just 'climax detector' there were many which copied and used the principle- in the 1980s there were hundreds of booming Working Mens Clubs here in the South Wales 'coal' valleys, and I used to see a lot of unmarked safes fitted with these locks. Usually very basic cast cylinders with sliders and with no actual 'detector' at all. I think from memory that Phillip's may have been one of the few safes that used them and was brave enough to mark their name on a plaque, but I might be wrong and Phillip's might have used a Cotterill. Most of the unnamed safes were typical square cornered construction with moulding on the door, and a fancy cast brass hexagonal knob handle. I think some of the bottom end British makers simply saw them as something different to fit and market, accompanied by the usual tongue in cheek claims of pick resistance and security.

    Your wire bow is a nice key, and like oldlock said it could well be a replacement copy. I've never seen a wire bow Climax type, but I still have quite a few antique blanks for them and for Bramah's, so this one's got me curious!

    All I can add is that the Climax blanks always seem to have the stepped stem and distinctive arch shaped bow, scalloped at the base where it joins the stem- bit like a shell shape, whereas all the Bramah types I have are straight stem and wire bow. That's not to say that you couldn't use a straight stem wire bow blank, turn it down to 'step' it, and then re-turn the fluting etc, but it wouldn't be the most straightforward option to take. Any such key once aged by 40 or 50 years would certainly be difficult to distinguish. It's the sort of 'dodge' I'd still do myself if I didn't have an exact match blank, but that doesn't mean it's not an unusual original, so case still open on that one?

    BTW I still have the Cotterill's Patent Climax Detector lock, with both original keys, which is also marked Wilson's Patent...just to confuse things a bit more lol...

    Sorry I can't be of more help. I'm sure someone into all the history and dates can come up with all the rest

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxVaultage View Post
    Hi warren- first of all congrats on all those keys! They are nice examples- the Mappins is great and I haven't seen a wire bow Climax/Whitfield type before- more on that one later.

    Oldlock will know far more than me, but having had countless Climax, Whitfield's and Cotterill's pass through my hands I have to admit to never having a Mappin's, so I'm going to pass totally on those.

    I agree with oldlock on the weIt's a lovely lock Max, I like seeing other peoples treasuresaspects though- Bramah nailed it with the vertical sliders being pushed down by the key. All the others with radial sliders being pushed radially outwards (by the key) were never reliable locks- I've mentioned this before but they were notorious for sliders cracking over the slots and since each slider was individually sprung, the compression springs were small and prone to squashing and breaking midway. 25 years ago I used to hand make keys, turn new drill pins and hand file new sliders etc. The Late Great John Rattue 'Spring Man' was the only source we knew for springs, and with a new set of those I gave many a new lease of life. These days the labour alone would be many times what the lock or safe is worth and few would be prepared to pay. Seeing the smaller stepped extension on the end of the Mappins keys means I can only imagine what they were like..

    Sorry I can't answer all your questions but with regard to locks bearing just 'climax detector' there were many which copied and used the principle- in the 1980s there were hundreds of booming Working Mens Clubs here in the South Wales 'coal' valleys, and I used to see a lot of unmarked safes fitted with these locks. Usually very basic cast cylinders with sliders and with no actual 'detector' at all. I think from memory that Phillip's may have been one of the few safes that used them and was brave enough to mark their name on a plaque, but I might be wrong and Phillip's might have used a Cotterill. Most of the unnamed safes were typical square cornered construction with moulding on the door, and a fancy cast brass hexagonal knob handle. I think some of the bottom end British makers simply saw them as something different to fit and market, accompanied by the usual tongue in cheek claims of pick resistance and security.

    Your wire bow is a nice key, and like oldlock said it could well be a replacement copy. I've never seen a wire bow Climax type, but I still have quite a few antique blanks for them and for Bramah's, so this one's got me curious!

    All I can add is that the Climax blanks always seem to have the stepped stem and distinctive arch shaped bow, scalloped at the base where it joins the stem- bit like a shell shape, whereas all the Bramah types I have are straight stem and wire bow. That's not to say that you couldn't use a straight stem wire bow blank, turn it down to 'step' it, and then re-turn the fluting etc, but it wouldn't be the most straightforward option to take. Any such key once aged by 40 or 50 years would certainly be difficult to distinguish. It's the sort of 'dodge' I'd still do myself if I didn't have an exact match blank, but that doesn't mean it's not an unusual original, so case still open on that one?

    BTW I still have the Cotterill's Patent Climax Detector lock, with both original keys, which is also marked Wilson's Patent...just to confuse things a bit more lol...

    Sorry I can't be of more help. I'm sure someone into all the history and dates can come up with all the rest
    Thanks for that useful iformation Max, if it wasn't for yourself and Oldlocks explanations I would still be scratching my head. There's not anywhere a collector can get this information and it's truly invaluable. Could you tell me if the keys on your Wilson Cotterill lock are marked with Wilson and Cotterill or is it only on the lock itself?. I'm presuming it's only on the lock as you can only fit so much info on a small bow. It's a lovely lock Max, I enjoy looking at other collectors treasures! It's the next best thing to owning them yourself. Thanks again.

  6. #6
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    Mappins patent locks basically used a bottom 'pin' with a top 'pin' (for pin say slider (maybe !!)) With the shear line between the inner and outer cores.

    They have a single spring wrapped around the core.

    I have a lock (somewhere) and will post some pictures when I find it.

  7. #7
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    Hi Warren yes you got it the keys are only marked E. Cotterill's Patent Birmingham on one side of the bow and Climax Detector on the other. Then on the lock the front of the cast brass nozzle has tiny Cotterill's Patent around the keyhole, and then the steel bolt has the E. Cotterill & Co, Wilson's Patent, Nine Slides, Birmingham.

    Yes your'e right there's not much info out there on any of these and sadly I know very little, but ask away whenever as hopefully between everyone you'll eventually get the answers.

    I'm not big on all the history and dates, that's never been my thing at all, but I have a lot of experience of working with things. I'm sure someone else will come up with the details of changes and the dates etc

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