Mystery floor safe

[Kiarek]

Hi everyone,

started rewiring my house today and had to go under the floor to get cables in, in the corner of one of the livings rooms I found a big "structure" it was about 2 foot of cement each side and a foot of bricks cemented into the cement, after breaking a hole in the floor of the room I found a small round safe lock, with a handle to pull what I presume to be a tube ? Once the lock is open. There was also a tag with strange writing on it, the houses current wiring is atleast 40 years old, so I'm guessing the safe is atleast that, I tried turning the lock and got no sound or clicks I don't know if that's normal, the only logo on the safe was on the turning "Seargent greenleaf " you will see in the pictures below.

Im presuming there's nothing in the safe and I wish not to use it however I would like to open it just once, just so I can say I did and because it's really interesting! , if anyone could help that would be
amazing !
Ryan

[wylk]

Unlike Hollywood depictions, combination locks should not make sounds or clicks. Sargent & Greenleaf is a very old and common maker and its appearance is what I might expect at 40 years old (or older or newer).

The tag might have been a cryptic reminder to the original owner but I can't imagine how to decipher it. I suppose you could try to track down the owner.

I see two ways to open it. First, hire a locksmith who can "manipulate" it open which would mean no damage. Second, hire a locksmith who can drill the lock to open it; this would obviously damage it but this would be cheaper. "Cheaper" is a relative term!

If you can get the safe out of the floor and deliver it to a locksmith's shop, that could save a little money. Or you could drill a small hole in a side or the bottom and peek to see if anything's inside before trying to get it open.

[Arcade Al]

Unlike Hollywood depictions, combination locks should not make sounds or clicks.

The one on our Mosler GSA vault door clicks. I imagine it's a defence against manipulation?

Chubb Manifoil locks have clicking rollers in too, although I don't think they are normally audible without some sort of augmentation though.

[Huw Eastwood]

Well apart from when you finally unlock one and retract the bolt, I've never had a proper 'click' from any of the thousands of Manifoil's I've worked on Al! - yes, you can gently feel some tension from those 2 roller arms as they roll down into the gate in the top driver, but I think it'd be a stretch of the imagination to call it a 'click'!

Think of the Fichet Monocommande combination lock- a true click-action lock on which you actually count the clicks- positive and clearly audible on every one. I think that's more the sort of thing people are expecting if they don't know about locks.

[wylk]

Yes, the Mosler 302 and 402 locks have one distinct click per rotation and it is one of the anti-manipulation features. But usually Hollywood gives us constant clicks that make me think of winding a pendulum clock or the clicking of the rear wheel of many bicycles when they coast.

When I look at that tag I see "WIGLR" rather than "NIGEL". Not that it helps much!

[Ian D. Lewis]

Yes, the Mosler 302 and 402 locks have one distinct click per rotation and it is one of the anti-manipulation features. But usually Hollywood gives us constant clicks that make me think of winding a pendulum clock or the clicking of the rear wheel of many bicycles when they coast.

When I look at that tag I see "WIGLR" rather than "NIGEL". Not that it helps much!

The rollers in the Manifoil Lock are also a anti manipulation device.

[wylk]

For what it's worth, the logo on the knob was trademarked in 1952. The company moved from Rochester NY to Nicholasville KY in 1974. So the lock (or more precisely the knob) was most likely made between 1952 and 1974, or 41-63 years ago. Of course the lock (or knob) could have sat on a shelf for years before being assembled by the safe maker (S&G only makes locks, not safes).

[Kiarek]

Thank you for your helpful reply, if there is no way to open this without incurring cost then I shall re cement it and put the floor back, maybe in another 50 years someone will have the time and funds to play around with it, the way it's buried it would take ripping half the floor out and getting a jackhammer to it haha

[Chubby]

The handle looks like a Secure. The door would be very slightly larger than the combination dial.

They were a nice little unit. A little spring loaded aed on the door in the thickness of the plate.

Does the door spin or is it locked in place?

The story shows the basic security of a floor safe. They are well hidden!

Why not see how much it would cost to get it manipulated open? If you have a safe you will use it.

[Huw Eastwood]

It looks more like a Dreadnought to me guys- probably a 'Dauntless' but whatever it is, yep- there's no easy way to magic it open.

Chubby's right in saying the small doors by Secure Safes (Coventry) had a similar look and handle, but their handles were small mazak die-castings with a distinctive profile to the loop. Yours looks to be formed from bare steel wire/bar and is much larger spanning the complete dial and bezel. Secure Safes always had countersunk screws holding the handles on. Difficult to tell from your pics as it's not possible to see any slots in the heads- they look a bit like smooth domes suggesting they could be spiral pins, which would be another pointer towards Dreadnought.

The overall size suggests Dreadnought to me- plenty of door showing around the bezel. The Secure Safes doors looked tiny when fitted with the S&G combo locks.

You can narrow it down a bit more by measuring the door- only the door and NOT the neck it fits into- Secure Safes doors were, from memory only about 5 3/8 or 5 and a half inches diameter- a tight squeeze if you have shovel hands! Dreadnoughts were much larger at over 6 inches (6 1/4 or 6 1/2 inches from memory).

If it's a Dreadnought its most likely a model called the Dauntless, or possibly a Defiant. It's definitely not one of the higher range doors as they actually had 2-way boltwork operated by a central knurled knob on the keylock versions, and a very distinctive sliding 'lever', which pivoted under the bezel on combination lock versions, which yours doesn't have.