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  1. #1
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    Country: Australia

    Default Chubb Detector 6 Lever Safe Lock

    I recently acquired the two Chubb locks pictured below & have a few questions about them.

    They were rescued (not by me) when a bank branch in Western Australia was closed down & were apparently from a safe. There is one left handed and one right handed lock.

    They are obviously 6 Lever Detector locks, but I am curious as to which pattern they are. From what I can see, appear to be the Definitive Patent pattern, but I am no expert!

    I am also curious about their age. The fa that they show the 128 Queen Victoria Street address tells me they were made after 1877, when they relocated there from 57 St Pauls Churchyard.

    The serial numbers stamped on the bolts are hard to read, however I am certain that one of them reads 1464079 the other is 146?083. From what I understand, this should facilitate dating them.

    As is clear from the photos, the locks could do with some cleaning. They are slightly rusted in places & very dry - definitely in need of some lubrication.

    I would like to know how I should go about cleaning them. I am not looking to do a big restoration job on them for now, but would like to at least clean away the rust and any debris & then lubricate them.

    There is some patchy pale beige(maybe once gold) paint on them, I would like to remove it if possible, or failing that just clean it. If it is quite straightforward, I would like to know how to remove it.

    To give an indication of their condition & the degree of rusting, I have shown the one in the worst condition almost totally dismantled.

    The lock that is pictured intact is in better condition. There is almost no rust whatsoever.

    I collect antique locks, and therefore I will not be selling these locks, however I would be interested in their approximate value. I know that the Chubb Detector locks are collectable, but from what I can ascertain, these are of the most common pattern & nowhere near as rare or sought after as the earlier versions.

    Finally, when reassembling the lock, do I put the levers on their post & then try to wrangle the comb of springs into place, or do I secure the springs in place first & then manoeuvre the levers into place - both seem awkward.

    The tolerances in them are just amazing, especially the close fit of the gates & fence!

    Any information about these locks and help regarding restoration would be much appreciated!

    Thankyou,

    ...Mark
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails image.jpg   image.jpg   image.jpg   image.jpg   image.jpg  


  2. #2
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    If they were on a safe they would not have been original as they are clearly designed for the key to work from both sides. However lots of strange things went on over the years so a retrofit onto some other makers safe is quite possible.

    Handle the comb springs with great care, if you snap a finger you will have the very devil of a job getting it repaired or replaced.

    I normally fix the spring in position and then very gently put the levers in one at a time, carefully flexing the springs one at a time to do so.

    The original factory finish is the black japanning. Very hard to reproduce correctly as it's a baked on colour.

    Yes they can be dated from the numbers, I can't lay my hands on my serial number extract at the time of writing, if no-body else does it first I will date them when I find it.

    They are worth whatever you paid. Value is greatly reduced by the absence of original keys. They are the most common detector pattern, and also not an especially rare pattern of lock either being quite small in size.

    NB - to get keys made in australia that will be right you will either need to fabricate the blanks from scratch or jacksons used to make some larger cast blanks that will be OK as a starting point, either ways lots of work.

    I would remove the rust with some very fine emery and oil.

    Hope it helps.

    Paul (in perth)

  3. #3
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    Thankyou for the quick reply!

    They cost the petrol to collect them & my father took them over from Perth to Melbourne for me - well worth it in my mind, not having any Detector pattern locks in my collection until now.

    I noticed that that the lock case suggests they were locks designed to be operated from both sides, hence not safe locks, however the lever pack wouldn't permit this, unless different keys were used for each side of the lock. Maybe it was rekeyed & repurposed.

    Fabricating a blank key is beyond my expertise, but I have made keys from prefabricated blanks in the past. However, judging by the tight tolerances, making keys for these myself will be quite a challenge!

    ...Mark

  4. #4
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    The lever pack shown in image 4 would be for a symmetrical double sided key.

    The issue with modern blanks is getting ones that will be a correct fit, not only in flag size but also thickness. A flat bit simply will not work correctly. - so with these fabrication is the only way to go.

  5. #5
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    They are very nice locks mercury.

    Chubb seemed to do that a lot- making their locks 'modular' single or double sided by changing covers, lever-sets and curtains etc. I've seen it on more recent detectors but didn't know they did it on earlier locks as well.

    Don't be put off by wear or corrosion as it'd be hard to find any of that age in immaculate condition anyway. I'd be tempted to leave them as they are, as everyone has different ideas about how to clean and how far to take it. If you intend to keep them and never sell then that's often the deciding factor, but I'd still consider it before you do- especially regarding the outside of the locks. Once you cut through that patina there's no going back...

    If you're going to try finding or fabricating blanks then it's worth going all the way with restoration as there;s a lot of intricate work involved anyway as oldlock says. Painting looks fine if you can replicate the right 'look' and finish to it- there's a company in the UK called Frost Automotive Restoration which used to do an amazing range of kits for painting and electroplating different finishes, and amazingly they did a Black japanning kit- the only one on the market I've known of. Don't know if they still do them though, but it was in the last catalog i had a few years back.

  6. #6
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    Thankyou for the reply & advice, Maxvaultage, and thankyou for your contributions to the forum overall. Your miniatures are amazing works of art, I wish I had funds to buy one when you were selling some!!


    I have never attempted restoration of any other locks in my collection, I love the patina they have developed & would consider it vandalism to remove it!


    With respect to these locks, I would only remove the patina if I could re-japan them. Unfortunately Frost Automotive Restoration no longer sells the japanning solution. I have a friend who claims he knows where to get it, though.


    I am accustomed to thinking of rust as cancer of metal, hence my desire to remove it. At this point I am thinking I should try to remove the rust inside the rusted lock, remove the tarnish & adhering rust from the brass parts, lubricate & reassemble the lock. I do not know what lubricant I should use, though.


    If I find myself in a position to afford to pay somebody to make a key for one of them, then I will fully restore that lock. I guess it's a difficult question, but can anybody provide an estimate for the cost to have a key made for one of these locks?


    Oldlock - it is a lot easier to examine the lever pack in person, but I still beg to differ regarding it being able to be operated by a symmetrical key from both sides. Levers 2 & 5 match, levers 3 & 4 match, but levers 1 & 6 do not - see pictures below. I thought I understood lever locks at a basic level, am I misunderstanding something?


    The curtain also appears to be for a one sided lock.


    ...Mark
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails image.jpg   image.jpg   image.jpg  

  7. #7
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    Your missing something ...

    The top lever lift matches the talon / bolt.

    The curtains always were single sided, and generally were made to protect the lock from the 'outside' .

  8. #8
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    Just to expand a little more to make this easier to understand.

    The top lever latches the height of the talon / bolt throw.
    Therefore :

    1 matches 5
    2 matches 4
    and 3 is on it's own.

    I've restored and made keys for lots of these over the years and am quite certain of this.

  9. #9
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    I understand now, thankyou. So simple & seemingly obvious...once you've explained it.

    I realise you have a very rich & in depth knowledge of these locks, hence my speculation that I had missed something. I was pretty sure I had missed something, and you were correct, but I couldn't figure it out.

    I have been reading this forum back when you were running it (username was mercurial, until I lost the password) and have been an avid reader ever since, so I appreciate how much you know about this stuff!

    One of my favourite pieces in my collection is one of the cutaway Yale safe deposit locks you made. A great lock & beautiful job of crafting it into a cutaway. It gets interest and attention from friends of mine who usually aren't at all interested in locks.

    Thanks again,

    ...Mark

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercury View Post
    Thankyou for the reply & advice, Maxvaultage, and thankyou for your contributions to the forum overall. Your miniatures are amazing works of art, I wish I had funds to buy one when you were selling some!!
    Thanks for your comments mercury. It's a shame about the Black japanning kits- I did wonder though, between EU changes and the economic climate there's been loads of specialist products and companies disappear lately. There was another called GLR Distributors who also sold similar kits aimed at model engineering and small restorations, but they went through over a year ago. Plus, paints have changed drastically following EU ruling dictated by Brussels- a lot of superb touch-ups and treatments I used to get are now banned and unavailable. It's worth researching all the old concoctions and DIY methods though- it's amazing what can be replicated and mixed-up, if you don't mind the time involved and aren't put-off by the chemicals, storage, and getting your hands dirty!

    The inside of the lock does look quite pitted, but typical really for it's age. Worth avoiding the really abrasive methods, so a good clean and soak with something like GT85 would be a good start. An old toothbrush is great for giving it a scrub. This often doesn't get right down into the pitting though, so a small brush with soft brass bristles is a good one for that- the brass is softer than the steel and will remove loose rust where it's pitted without abrading or scratching the surrounding steel. Most auto spares shops sell them for cleaning the electrodes on spark plugs- make sure it's brass though. You can also get miniature rotary versions for use with jeweller's drills and dremels etc. Anything else like fine wet/dry paper, fine emery, steel wool etc will all clean it up in different ways but will of course cut through everything to fresh steel.

    For lubrication once it's done, Chubb's are usually smooth enough without it, but just a small puff of dry powdered graphite should make it as smooth as new. A thin smear of white grease might make a difference under the lath (tail) of the bolt, especially where the lanket slot slides over the post, but again it's not usually necessary.

    Let us know what you do and good luck with it whatever ways you decide to go

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