Skeleton Keys - Please assist

[Fuzyhamster]

I have two skeleton keys that I know NOTHING about. Any information will help me research them further. =)

The first (with the cut) is exactly 6 inches in length.

The second is smaller at 4 3/4ths inches.

ANY info would be appreciated so I can research these guys further! =)

[Dean Nickel]

The first key looks like a cabinet key, warded lock, also looks like it is broken.

The second is a door key, warded lock.

Age without markings or a lock will be near impossible.

[Fuzyhamster]

The first key looks like a cabinet key, warded lock, also looks like it is broken.

The second is a door key, warded lock.

Age without markings or a lock will be near impossible.

Thank you for the information, I really appreciate it regardless =)

[lucysmith]

For me, it looks like an old korean key. :)

[timof5stars]

Dean,

I would have guessed the first key to be a gate key, but as you know I'm just getting started in all this. Is it the fact that it is a barrel key (i.e. hole in the end) that is more indicative of a cabinet key
(vs. the solid shank of a traditional skeleton key)? Thanks.

Tim

[NigelKTolley]

That first key looks broken. The post should sit into a nice hole, & that key is missing the bottom edge. It is a simple warded key, not a skeleton key.

The second one could be nearly anything, most likely a cheap gate lock. Certainly you could call it a skeleton key, though it isn't really.

[Doug MacQueen]

To add a little more confusion, the second key which may be American, can be correctly called a skeleton key, at least here in the U.S.. My parents side door (post WWII) had the simplest house lock containing only one lever to retain the bolt. These locks were very primitive, being similar to single acting pre- Barron locks in action. Since the lever could be over lifted, no bitting cut was required. Internal case protrusions (wards) would prevent an uncut blank from rotation. But these wards were small in comparison to the cut back sides of the second key. The large side areas that are cut back will allow them to work in many different locks of this type. Sounds like what some might even call a master key, but in a lock shop they are called a skeleton key. A bit key may or may not have side ward cuts, but bitting being the term for the end lever cuts only. Doug .

[NigelKTolley]

The large side areas that are cut back will allow them to work in many different locks of this type. Sounds like what some might even call a master key, but in a lock shop they are called a skeleton key. A bit key may or may not have side ward cuts, but bitting being the term for the end lever cuts only. Doug .

Personally I'd expect a skeleton key to be thinner in the middle, so it could work on more types of these locks. The middle section looks rather thick, so I suspect it is a skeleton or "cheap master" key for the range of locks it came from.

I'm currently trying to come up with a new warded lock design which is more secure.

The reason, as I'm sure you know, that warded locks aren't very secure is nothing to do with the actual warding, but rather to do with the fact that those wards can only detect if a key has nothing in a certain position and allow it to pass, and cannot tell if there is, in fact, almost nothing to the key.

All other lock types* can tell this: A cut too low on a lever lock, cylinder lock or even cheap wafer lock will block the rotation of the key. Some, like Chubb detainer locks and Abloy disc detainer locks can tell this to an almost startling degree. But a warded lock has no idea if it is the correct full key or a bit of wire, or, indeed, a cut-down key.

*A few poorly designed locks don't, but those are security flaws I won't discuss here.

Anyway, in my opinion it isn't very skeletonised. That's all I was saying.

[Doug MacQueen]

Hi Nigel I can only speak to US locks, not what you see in the UK. Over here that key qualifies as being a skeleton key by its design. It may well have been a master key for a set of locks. I doubt that will be determined at this point. Regarding the security of the warded locks, there are numerous high quality locks with complex internal warding that would prove very challenging to overcome in a reasonable amount time, especially in only one sitting. I believe much of the bad press on warded locks came from the simple ones that were found on so many UK shops in the mid to late 1700's. But then Barron and Bramah proved that better security could be had without the great expense of a high quality warded lock. Then again I once watched Tom Jones pick a 9 lever Kromer Novum in 5 minutes with a Hobbs pick I made. Doug

[NigelKTolley]

Then again I once watched Tom Jones pick a 9 lever Kromer Novum in 5 minutes with a Hobbs pick I made. Doug

It's not unusual. ;-)

Sorry.

Yes, I agree that a really complex warded lock will avoid any set of standard skeleton keys. And there are some beautiful examples out there - and on here too. However, the vast majority of 'high end' warded locks suffered the same problems.

Firstly they were almost all single sided, and so unsuitable for a door. Secondly they were insanely hard to make, requiring hours or days of skilled work. This meant that only one key existed for many locks. This also made them very expensive.
Thirdly the entire lock had to be changed if a key was lost, as modification was a nightmare if security was to be maintained.
And fourthly, if the design became common, the security was massively reduced because of the tiny key space.

Add in the fact the keys tended to be massive to maintain strength while taking ever more complex warding and more metal removal, and there was really no way they would ever be both secure and common, nor cheap without being mass produced copies that destroyed their own security, victims of their own success.