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  1. #21
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    Unfortunately the sound on my computer doesn't work, so I don't know what Schuyler had to say. I would point out that known use of a tool is not proof of invention. Like the wheel, a good idea is readily copied. Also the Neo Assyrian era was less than 3000 years ago, not 4000. So what are the rough datings of found examples and the pictoral references? It sounds like there isn't a whole lot of either. Doug My computer is really slow today. Anyone else having this problem. Or maybe it is just reacting to fall it took yesterday.

  2. #22
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    Default Skeleton Keys - Please assist

    Doug, do you have any sound on your computer or is it just with the Schuyler video? If its just the video click on the speaker icon. Maybe it got muted by accident.
    The video is long - 51 minutes. It's basically a history of locks also touching upon the symbolic and socialogical aspects. Schuyler is a good speaker easily talking without notes. It's only his claim that the neo-Assyrians were the first to invent the pin lock that I question. Otherwise it's worthwhile watching.

  3. #23
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    Scott, thanks for tip but I think it was due to the fall. Yes, Schuyler is quite the speaker. He has been on the forum before, maybe he will show up again. Anyway, I found a reference in Eton's book where he saw and describes the pin style lock, which was still in use. Not sure exactly where he was, but since immediately prior to his travels, the Ottoman Empire encompassed all of the areas in question, so that doesn't narrow it down. Nor did he discuss its heritage, at least from what I found. Doug

  4. #24
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    I should probably have put this in it's own thread, but since I originally spoke of it here, here it remains. This is from the 1810 Britannica regarding the security of warded locks. " If these wards, however, do not in an effectual manner preclude the access of all other instruments besides the proper key, it is still possible for a mechanic of EQUAL SKILL with the lockmaker to open it without the key, and thus elude the labour of the other." This is a paraphase of Joseph Bramah's own words that can be found in his dissertation on locks. The capitalization is mine and this statement is a far cry from the generalized and misleading statement that gets repeated over and over regarding the security of warded locks. Doug

  5. #25
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    After listening to Schuyler's talk, I see that he continues the misrepresentation of warded locks. The major disadvantage seen in a warded lock is the fact that the blocking wards are fixed. While true, it is like a maze. If simple, it is easily and quickly overcome. If complex, not so quick and easy. But given enough time it would fall. And just like today, the more you know about how locks are designed, the greater the chances of defeating them. In Bramah's dissertation, he was referring to the warded locks found in the houses in England during the 1700's. He was well aware that many were not the epitome of the warded design. This disadvantage had obviously become common knowledge among some of the population by that time. Bramah was also not typical of the locksmiths of his time, in that he was at the forefront of the Industrial Revolution, relying heavily on machines, not handwork. He realized that with a few movable wards, he could have the advantage seen in a very complex warded lock. However, since the warding would always return to their original positions when at rest, he believed time would no longer be a factor. He had invented the perfect lock. Of course the later addition of false gating proved this was not quite true. In time, the pin tumbler lock may be seen in the same foggy light as the warded locks are today, given the very fast picking times posted by Schuyler and other pin pickers on some common pin locks. Doug

  6. #26
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    Default Skeleton Keys - Please assist

    Doug -
    As I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, you have given me a new perspective and respect for the complex, hand-made warded locks made by locksmiths who were true cratsmen.
    In regard to the mass produced warded locks of the industrial age, I believe their weakness was that each type was part of a series with a limited number of ward changes. Anyone who had a key for that particular series (even though it was the wrong key) simply had to file it down to the bare essentials, and he would have a skeleton key that would open any in the series. This could not be done for a one-of-a-kind, hand made lock and key with complex wards.
    Scott

  7. #27
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    Exactly right. When the key space is only from warding, it is a very small keyspace, perhaps just 5 or 10 differs across the range, and one "master" or skeleton to open them all. When you add even just a single movable element with, say, 5 differs, it increases the keyspace by 5 times, and then adding a second one increases it to 25 times, and pretty soon you have a keyspace too big for an attacker to simply carry a handful of bits of bent wire that will open every one of the differs in the basic warded locks. And then, of course, people evolve the attacks, but that's life.

    As regards the claims that Schyler makes, yes, the dodgy maths is the bit I referred to. However, I think the argument that the lock evolved in Assyria then was transferred to Egypt is quite strong. The language would never have evolved without something driving it, and while it is possible it was imported to Assyria, then into Egypt, where on earth was it developed then? It would have to be some lost civilisation.

  8. #28
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    Dodgy math is right. I wasn't aware the Roman Empire was around before the Greeks even got into full swing. Schuyler certainly is an enthusiastic speaker, but I think he needs to do a little more alignment of his(tory). Regarding the origins, it is just as possible the pin lock went from Egypt to Assyria. It seems the evidence is a little too sketchy, either way. Doug

  9. #29
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    Very interesting subject guys- A bit-off topic for the thread, but one which I'm sure everyone has an interest.

    As for any claims as to the originality of the invention, it isn't going to convince me. Like Doug said it's little different to establishing who invented the wheel or first discovered fire. Surely, all we can ever hope to establish is the earliest civilization known to use it. It seems that a lot of these ancient skills and technologies were not only passed between civilisations and adopted and changed between them, but also passed 'down the line' so to speak, rendering establishment of originality impossible.

    Consider the Antikythera mechanism for example. Found in the early 1900s, and established as very old and complicated back then, but it's only relatively recently that modern analysis using X-rays has allowed scientists to begin to untangle the mystery- and it just gets deeper- complexity 20 times more than originally thought, with multiple layers of intricate bronze planetary gears, and yet if I remember right, it pre-dates known precision gearing by about 1500 years. It really does make you think. There are quite a few scientists and professors who have dedicated a large chunk of their lives trying to decipher and replicate it.

    Nigel- as for 'lost civilisations' I think that could well be an answer. I think there's every possibility that over the next few decades we'll establish there are many of them. We already know of countless Lost Cities underwater in the Mediterranean, additional possibilities off the coasts of Japan and India, and amazingly it appears the last time many of these would have been above sea level is around 10 or 12,000 years ago. As time progresses, so does our historic and scientific understanding, and I think the answers that we'd like to many of these age-old questions, will probably just raise further questions themselves. But for now, I don't think we know half as much as we'd like to think we do.

  10. #30
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    The Antikythera Mechanism is truly amazing. However it is now fully worked out. It has a level of complexity far beyond most, up there with a top end Swiss watch, yet dates from a time when most people think the ancients couldn't make a simple battery torch. Yet they had a stream engine design, complex machinery and had discovered electricity, they just didn't really need any of that because they had a nearly free complex machine to do everything for them - Slave labour!

    To think that the box that held the Antikythera mechanism didn't have a lock on it, or at least a proper latch? Seems unlikely. But, that dates from around the time of Christ, early 1st Century BC. That's thousands of years later than we are taking about here. In fact, it is almost twice as long ago as that - the oldest dated lock found is 4000 years old.

    I think that the lock travelled from Assyria to Egypt due to the fact it evolved in Assyrian language and just suddenly appeared in Egyptian. But was it invented in Assyria? We will likely never know.

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