Skeleton Keys - Please assist

[NigelKTolley]

Then again I once watched Tom Jones pick a 9 lever Kromer Novum in 5 minutes with a Hobbs pick I made. Doug

It's not unusual. ;-)

Sorry.

Yes, I agree that a really complex warded lock will avoid any set of standard skeleton keys. And there are some beautiful examples out there - and on here too. However, the vast majority of 'high end' warded locks suffered the same problems.

Firstly they were almost all single sided, and so unsuitable for a door. Secondly they were insanely hard to make, requiring hours or days of skilled work. This meant that only one key existed for many locks. This also made them very expensive.
Thirdly the entire lock had to be changed if a key was lost, as modification was a nightmare if security was to be maintained.
And fourthly, if the design became common, the security was massively reduced because of the tiny key space.

Add in the fact the keys tended to be massive to maintain strength while taking ever more complex warding and more metal removal, and there was really no way they would ever be both secure and common, nor cheap without being mass produced copies that destroyed their own security, victims of their own success.

[Huw Eastwood]

Hi Nigel- not sure about the hours or days of skilled work on the best examples- more like weeks or months

Doug that's weird timing mentioning TJ and his Kromer picking- (Twilight Zone music)- I haven't heard his name in years and only yesterday I found his paper on picking the Kromer's- I'd forgotten I even had it.

[NigelKTolley]

Yes, probably in the order of days, just for a lock change!

No wonder there are so many of the old keys kicking about, decades or even hundreds of years after the locks are gone.

[Doug MacQueen]

My point in the 5 minute lock Kromer opening was to show that comparatively it may take longer to pick open a high quality warded lock than a modern high quality lever lock. When Linus Yale Jr. came out with his pin tumbler locks, they were highly touted, became the most popular style used here in the US, and then were shown to be very susceptible to a bump key attack, or a pick gun. So in that sense history repeats itself, the common locks being cheaply made and many easily defeated, but in this case pin tumbler. Medeco comes along with an improvement in pin tumbler security, however this increase came with a considerable increase in price. Interesting to note that Yales original keyway was not warded, but warding was later used in a big way. Obviously locks that took forever to make by hand, were to be no longer as we moved into the Industrial Revolution, populations and wealth increased etc. , but since I have been studying the history of locks, I repeatedly have found great antagonism to the ancient warded locks. Often this is just parroted by those who know little about about the reality. In other cases it was to push what was new and improved. In the 1600's you could not just go to the hardware store and buy some good steel wire to make a lock pick or the tools to bend it. Just sayin. By the way Nigel it's good to have you on here. Even better that you have something to say. Doug

[NigelKTolley]

You are absolutely right.

I hate running into old warded locks on doors I have to open, because I know that if they haven't been compromised by some cretin with an angle grinder, and none of my try out keys or wires work, it is going to be a long opening!

Worst are the rim mounted ones where you need a very thick wire and a lot of effort to prevail against the big spring in it, through at least 2 inches of door.

Of course, if I met more of them I would work on carrying more tools to defeat them - in the same way I have multiple dedicated kits for dealing with various lever locks in addition to the picks.

I know even making a copy key can take a day, as blanks are largely unobtainable, so back when it was all hand tools it surely took even longer.

Of course nowadays we can cheat and use the 3D printer for "single use" items and even small load bearing parts, but that is swapping the machines hours of effort for my own, & it still needs a CAD model first!

[Scott Klemm]

Thanks Doug and Nigel for giving me a fresh perspective on the warded lock. (Of course what you say applies to the older, hand made ones - not the cheap, mass produced ones.) Admittedly in the past I was one of those who disparaged these locks. You have given me a more appreciative view of the security of those locks hand made by skilled craftsmen.

Doug, I think you are so correct in what you said about "parroting" what others had said. A good example is the assertion that the ancient Egyptians invented the first pin tumbler lock. Although this lock type can be traced back to ancient times, there is no evidence for them prior to the Ptolemic (or Greek) period. In my book, Ancient Locks: The Evolutionary Development of the Lock and Key, I present evidence that it was the Greeks from the region of Laconia who were the first to invent this lock type.

[Doug MacQueen]

Scott, I am curious if you found the origins of the claim itself. Did it start with the 1800's archeologists or does it go back further? Doug

[Scott Klemm]

It appears that the idea that the Egyptians invented the first pin tumbler type lock comes from early travelers - not archeologists. The first was William Eton in his Survey of the Turkish Empire (1789). Next came Dominque Vivant Denon's Travels in Upper and Lower Egypt (1802). Supposedly Denon actually saw one pictured on the walls of the Temple of Karnak. But, if you read his words carefully, he describes a bolt with no mention that it was key operated. Later writers such as Chubb (1850), Hobbs (1853), Price (1856), Hopkins (1928), etc. simply "parroted" what earlier writers had written. In turn, encylopedias have repeated the misinformation of these earlier writers.

[NigelKTolley]

That isn't quite right.

If you watch Schuyler Townes' talk on this, it seems pretty proven that the lock was invented in neo-Assyria some 4000 years ago, & he also shows the area where the Eygptian hieroglyphics were found, which tallies with the reports from the first Western visitors.
It seems a sound hypothesis that the lock simply predated the Egyptians, coming from nearby, having evolved from the seals the Assyrians used (at least linguistically in cuneiform) before 'suddenly' appearing in hieroglyphics.

Have a watch of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqjacHSTd48

I know Shoes quite well, and though his maths is slightly faulty the logic and the people he quotes are sound.

[Scott Klemm]

Nigel, thanks for directing my attention to the video of Schuyler's presentation. Although I briefly corresponded with him a couple years ago, I have never met him personally. I found his presentation very well done and he appeared intelligent and articulate. (I wish I had his public speaking skills.) However, I still disagree with his assertion that the Assyrians invented and used a pin tumbler lock. This supposition is based solely on linguistic evidence with no archeological evidence to support it. Muayad Said Basim Damerji's book, The Development of the Architecture of Doors and Gates in Ancient Mesopotamia (1987), does not include even a single example of a pin tumbler lock. As I wrote to Schuyler, "I would be cautious of accepting any reconstructed model of a Mesopotamian key-operated lock based on linguistic evidence alone with meager or no physical evidence."