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  1. #1
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    Default 1867 Chatwood v Herring Safe Challerge

    Tom, I am moving this discussion from the "Help ID large floor safe" thread so it isn't buried. I don't have quite the vested interest in the safe challenge as you, being aware of your affinity of all things Chatwood. However, I have been doing some researching on the topic and have some differing viewpoints of the affair. I have not yet completed "The Battle of The Safes" by George Augustus Sala, printed in 1868 London and found online. This appears to be the most complete description of the challenge and shall we say, a bit biased. Some of this bias exists because of differences that existed in the two countries, the U.S. and the UK. Anyone interested in this topic should check out the book I mentioned as that will help to understand further posts. Doug

  2. #2
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    On p.28, Sala makes somewhat of a big deal that the Chatwood was torn open through the side, indicating that wouldn't be possible in a burglary attempt and "was in itself a tacit confession of defeat". It is important to note that both Chatwood and Herring were much concerned that the opening attempts simulate those of actual burglaries as possible. Based on Sala's description, safes of that type would (always?) be buried in brick or stonework with only the door exposed. Granted that is usually a good idea, but is rarely seen in practice here in the U.S. and to my knowledge was not common in 1867. It is quite obvious the Chatwood door (and lock) were definitely up to the task, and possibly better than the Herring inner chest door, but to capitalize on a weak spot is exactly what a burglar will do, if it is known to exist. If Sala was correct about the safes always being buried, is it possible that was done to protect a known weak spot.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug MacQueen View Post
    Tom, I am moving this discussion from the "Help ID large floor safe" thread so it isn't buried. I don't have quite the vested interest in the safe challenge as you, being aware of your affinity of all things Chatwood. However, I have been doing some researching on the topic and have some differing viewpoints of the affair. I have not yet completed "The Battle of The Safes" by George Augustus Sala, printed in 1868 London and found online. This appears to be the most complete description of the challenge and shall we say, a bit biased. Some of this bias exists because of differences that existed in the two countries, the U.S. and the UK. Anyone interested in this topic should check out the book I mentioned as that will help to understand further posts. Doug
    It's a lovely....and very biased book...but the winner gets to write history as always. They could have printed it a bit bigger though -I found scanning and printing double sized helped.
    It is very rare to be buried in a wall over here -a complete red herring.
    The weight of tools used by Herring was elaborated and exaggerated but still was clearly not an option open to any normal burglar.

  4. #4
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    This would be similar to the Herring safe in the challenge.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails fightingfirefort00herr_0087.jpg  

  5. #5
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    Very nice picture Doug, is this brochure or leaflet in your possession? Does it have more pages?

    Just being curious :)

  6. #6
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    I am not sure how I found this online but it appears to be Herring's complete 1866 catalog and there are many more safes. The challenge safe is the lower double door safe with inner burglar chest. When Herring posted the challenge, there is no doubt that he was talking about the entire safe, but Chatwood tried very hard to limit it to the outer door(s) only, claiming that is how the challenge was posted. This makes absolutely no sense as the outer doors are the primary fire protection and the inner chest is primarily for burglary. Herring would have to be an idiot to put only the fire doors up against a burglary safe and an idiot he wasn't. In use, all doors would be shut and the money would be kept inside the money chest. Chatwood's logic in this matter is lost on me.

  7. #7
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    A lot of crying came out of the Chatwood camp both prior and after the challenge. I think this safe would have put them over the edge. It is probably the one Herring was trying to bring in from LeHavre.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails fightingfirefort00herr_0153.jpg  

  8. #8
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    Still wading through Sala's account and found an interesting and somewhat unbelievable little tidbit. Right up front at the beginning of the attack on the Chatwood safe, one of the Germans produced a key and tried it in the lock. It is not yet clear to me whether this was just a random key hoping to get lucky or a copy of the original working key. Of course this could have been checked out against the original Chatwood key but surprisingly it appears this was not done.

  9. #9
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    You might have stumbled on the first recorded sightread of a key! He had seen the key and tried to make a copy from what he had seen.

  10. #10
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    Without digital photos and given the very tight tolerances I can't believe that the knowledgeable German would have bothered for an instant to try sight reading.
    either it was a key for reading bellies or made from a wax impression during the exhibition or the only other explanation I can think of is that it was a stolen key. It would have been too blatant (even for Americans :-) ) and unlikely to win the contest, so if this far fetched scenario had worked ( they had changed the locks the previous day) then the sole point, because the challenge would have been properly restarted, would have been a stunt to advertise the main advantage of American combination locks over uk lovely Chatwood key locks - that there aren't any keys to lose - and to me, that seems entirely in character for mr herring

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