1867 Chatwood v Herring Safe Challerge

[Doug MacQueen]

Tom, I am moving this discussion from the "Help ID large floor safe" thread so it isn't buried. I don't have quite the vested interest in the safe challenge as you, being aware of your affinity of all things Chatwood. However, I have been doing some researching on the topic and have some differing viewpoints of the affair. I have not yet completed "The Battle of The Safes" by George Augustus Sala, printed in 1868 London and found online. This appears to be the most complete description of the challenge and shall we say, a bit biased. Some of this bias exists because of differences that existed in the two countries, the U.S. and the UK. Anyone interested in this topic should check out the book I mentioned as that will help to understand further posts. Doug

[Doug MacQueen]

On p.28, Sala makes somewhat of a big deal that the Chatwood was torn open through the side, indicating that wouldn't be possible in a burglary attempt and "was in itself a tacit confession of defeat". It is important to note that both Chatwood and Herring were much concerned that the opening attempts simulate those of actual burglaries as possible. Based on Sala's description, safes of that type would (always?) be buried in brick or stonework with only the door exposed. Granted that is usually a good idea, but is rarely seen in practice here in the U.S. and to my knowledge was not common in 1867. It is quite obvious the Chatwood door (and lock) were definitely up to the task, and possibly better than the Herring inner chest door, but to capitalize on a weak spot is exactly what a burglar will do, if it is known to exist. If Sala was correct about the safes always being buried, is it possible that was done to protect a known weak spot.

[Tom Gordon]

Tom, I am moving this discussion from the "Help ID large floor safe" thread so it isn't buried. I don't have quite the vested interest in the safe challenge as you, being aware of your affinity of all things Chatwood. However, I have been doing some researching on the topic and have some differing viewpoints of the affair. I have not yet completed "The Battle of The Safes" by George Augustus Sala, printed in 1868 London and found online. This appears to be the most complete description of the challenge and shall we say, a bit biased. Some of this bias exists because of differences that existed in the two countries, the U.S. and the UK. Anyone interested in this topic should check out the book I mentioned as that will help to understand further posts. Doug

It's a lovely....and very biased book...but the winner gets to write history as always. They could have printed it a bit bigger though -I found scanning and printing double sized helped.
It is very rare to be buried in a wall over here -a complete red herring.
The weight of tools used by Herring was elaborated and exaggerated but still was clearly not an option open to any normal burglar.

[Doug MacQueen]

This would be similar to the Herring safe in the challenge.

[Adrian Weber]

Hey Tom,

Thank you very much my friend!
Just downloaded it but would also be interested in the hard copy one day :)

[Doug MacQueen]

It does appear you have more info than I have been able to find so far, especially regarding the workmen. But my statement about a "simple challenge" is based solely on the original correspondence between the two men and it (their original desires) seem quite clear. As to a "character defect", I didn't say that but was pointing out exactly as you put it, it "made for a difficult and complicated likely outcome". There is no grief here but I will admit to "spicing" my words a bit. Personally I have no great love for Herring, but I am intrigued by the whole nasty affair. What eventually transpired shows that 5 did not do all that great of a job. Much has been said about the type, the amount and weight of tools that were brought in. Leaving that decision up to the two individual parties obviously resulted in differing opinions of what was needed. The fact the judges approved of differing amounts was on the judges and should have been rectified immediately. It was not and the challenge carried on. What ended up being successfully used were the wedges, hammers and crowbars. Both safes carried similar types of cast manganese iron, Speigeleisen and Franklinite. Most burglars, at the time, would have had access to only high carbon steel drills, which are not efficient on the hard manganese iron, so bringing and allowing in the drilling rig and frame was wasted effort. But it should have been made to both parties or neither. Specifics on how a particular safe is designed and built is information seldom available to the burglar, yet Chatwood pushed hard for it, being contrary to the common burglary. Whether Herring knowingly left out important facts in his drawings supplied to Chatwood is unknown. What is known, is that Herring stated right up front, early in their communications that it was not within his power to supply accurate working drawings.

[Adrian Weber]

Very nice picture Doug, is this brochure or leaflet in your possession? Does it have more pages?

Just being curious :)

[Doug MacQueen]

I don't know about supplying more complete evidence, but you could say the squeeky wheel did, in fact, get greased.

[Doug MacQueen]

I am not sure how I found this online but it appears to be Herring's complete 1866 catalog and there are many more safes. The challenge safe is the lower double door safe with inner burglar chest. When Herring posted the challenge, there is no doubt that he was talking about the entire safe, but Chatwood tried very hard to limit it to the outer door(s) only, claiming that is how the challenge was posted. This makes absolutely no sense as the outer doors are the primary fire protection and the inner chest is primarily for burglary. Herring would have to be an idiot to put only the fire doors up against a burglary safe and an idiot he wasn't. In use, all doors would be shut and the money would be kept inside the money chest. Chatwood's logic in this matter is lost on me.

[Doug MacQueen]

A lot of crying came out of the Chatwood camp both prior and after the challenge. I think this safe would have put them over the edge. It is probably the one Herring was trying to bring in from LeHavre.