Unusual Chubb ( Is it a Chubb?) safe lock.

[Brian Morland]

A safe or strongroom (?) lock that has no maker markings but has all the hallmarks of a Chubb lock although both Peter Gunn and Tommy Watson don’t think it’s a Chubb. Its incredibly close gated (fag paper and all that). There are 9 levers to each pack and as can be seen the lower lock acts as an escutcheon lock blocking the top lock although the shutter has been removed for clarity. Both packs have really nice detents. Size is 146mm x 210mm. Weight 5.7kg. I would be happy to take more pics if it’s found to be interesting and the thread gets going.

[oldlock]

The other option and the original patentee of the detent lock would be gibbons ??

I would agree with TW & PG if Chubb I would expect it to be marked ?

[Brian Morland]

Keith Carrier (ex Gibbons) doesn’t think it was one of theirs either.
One point that struck me was as this lock is in extremely good condition, it doesn’t look as if it’s ever been used. At what point did Chubb’s mark and serial number their locks. After manufacture and inspection just prior to sale?

There are several Chubb indicators:-

1. one pin and one pipe keyway, both of which are quite small and delicate, typical of Chubb for the period.
2. Note the way the top cap is located with those quadrant segments at the corners. There are many Chubb locks in the collection with this feature, although I don’t have any Gibbons locks, that incorporate this point.
3. Barrel and curtain in both top and bottom locks.

Has anyone got locks or pics of Gibbons locks or indeed other lock makes with these features for comparison.
Mike Fincher, thinks the lever style is typical and is convinced it’s a Chubb. Again has anyone got a Gibbons detent lock in their collection for comparison? The lock itself is in unused condition with no discernible wear. Its also a very odd size and shape which leaves one guessing as to its exact application.

General front and back views of the lock:-

[oldlock]

I have no information on when locks would have been marked. I agree that the lever design is typical, and I think Mike had a 12 lever Chubb detent lock that he maybe able to compare it with ?

I've never seen engine turning on Chubb locks either, but the whole thing may have been so special & bespoke maybe it was never marked. Where did it come from / off ?

PS - Any chance of uploading hi-res pictures to this server ?

[Brian Morland]

Another consideration is that the only Gibbons detent I know about is the one illustrated in the George Price Treatise, page 633, patented 22nd December 1853 (picture attached), where the layout is completely different. So if anyone does have a picture or example in his or her collection I would love to hear from you either via this thread or privately. Look at the detent itself in the lock above, it’s identical in shape to the one in Chubbs normal detent locks. Whilst very early Chubb detent locks did operate on conventional levers what I believe happened was when Chubbs took up Gibbons now expired patent they gradualy made some subtle but tell tale improvements. Of course later Chubbs issued instructions to their engineers to remove the detent arm whenever it was encountered, it seems that detent locks were causing lock-outs.

[Alan Morgan]

What a beautiful beast thanks for posting. Please send Paul some hi res pictures.
For those wondering, this is the more common Chubb Detent.

[Brian Morland]

A better quality pic of the lock interior, note the steel tips to the detents. One correction to the description – the bottom packs is only 7 levers.

[oldlock]

With the better quality pictures (thanks Brian) I would agree - it must be Chubb.

1 - Style of lever, typical of Chubb
2 - Bolt stump design - typical of Chubb locks with this type of lever.
3 - Cap fitting design - again typical.

I have a steel cased lock with all the features above, clearly stamped and numbered.

Is there any indication that the stamping may have been obliterated by the engine turning ? (depending on how 'deep' the turning is of course)

[Brian Morland]

There doesn't seem to be anywhere on the lock where any marking might have been removed although just above the '2' stamped on the lock case is this mark:-



The mark itself has 3 letters surrounding it, the collection does have examples of Chubb locks, properly stamped and with a serial number, that also includes this stamp or at least something very similar. The mark excluding the letters is very small and measures around 1 x 1.5mm.

[Tom Gordon]

Any suggestions about the three holes around each keyhole-are they tapped? There are clear signs of either an escutcheon or more likely, a keyway guide.