Hello from a new member

[yaxley]

This looks like a very interesting forum and I found it will searching for information on western safes. I do metal detecting, prospecting, photography, ham radio, and writing. I am currently writing a historical fiction piece that is based in 1876 Deadwood, Dakota Territory. I needed some information about the safes and locks that would be used and that is how I came across this forum. Currently reading and learning !

[Dean Nickel]

Welcome! What type of info are you looking for? Historical info on what type of things bank robbers would have done to open a safe? Things the manufactures did to make it harder to get into the safe? We can go all over the place with both of those.

[yaxley]

My original question of a scene is what got me here, but I also have a lot of other questions. I have a scene where a fire burns down a 2 story saloon. A safe is on the second floor and contains papers and gold dust in a cotton pouch. The safe falls into the rubble. I was wondering if the paper inside the safe would burn, whether the cotton pouch would burn, and if the gold would melt. I was using numbers where gold melts at 1947 F, Steel melts at 2600 F, paper burns at 480 F, cotton burns at 410 F. The fire temperature was around 1832 F. I wanted to be accurate, so I checked safe information and found that there were 'safes inside of safes,' made by Diebold. The outer being fire proof, and the inner burglar proof. So I was looking at manufacturers pre 1876 that would have safes like that. Many other questions on locks and such further down the road.

Anyone have safes of that period that I can use in the writing?
Thanks,

[Doug MacQueen]

Hi Bill, your question is difficult to answer. Is the saloon the only building burning or is it surrounded by other buildings also burning? Safes at that time were not tested and rated by independent laboratories but they were no doubt tested in house and in numerous large city fires. Diebold has a claim to fame of many of their safes surviving in the Chicago 1871? fire. It is known that, depending on the available fuel and duration, some fires peak at temperatures over 2,000 F. No doubt there were a few sham companies but for the most part, the better fire safes were designed to prevent papers from burning and survive in fires of great size and duration. The incentive to make them truly functional was a great one as there were so many devastating large city fires during the 1800's. The evidence points to that in many cases they did survive and in others they didn't. Just as many brand new fire safes made today would not survive in the hottest areas of certain fires. UL Rated 4 hour fires are rare but you can bet they wouldn't have been making them if there wasn't an actual need for them and no doubt would be preferable in a large city fire to the much more common 1 hr rated fire safe. Sorry if I am giving you more info than you wanted. Doug

[yaxley]

Thanks Doug. The fire was started by someone hurling 2 kerosene lanterns in the rear door. As the fire intensified, the buildings next to the burning saloon were destroyed by putting kegs of gun powder in them and exploding the buildings. That kept the fire from spreading to those building, so the fire did not burn as long as it could. I did read the Diebold article about their safes surviving the Chicago fire and suspect some of it was 'marketing.'

The second picture in this link shows an old Diebold safe that they said was 1880 and I don't know if it was around in 1876?? http://www.diebold.com/150/photo_safes.htm

So I'd like to know of a 'fireproof' safe that could have been around in 1876 Deadwood, Dakota Territory ?? Also any comments of the validity of my scenario?

Also, as a new member, how do I edit my posts? Wanted to change things in my first post but don't see where the edit function is??

Lots of great information here and I do have a collection of old keys that I'll post on this forum...no idea what they are, or from what period. A collection my grandmother had years ago. Now I'm interested in key collection.

[Dean Nickel]

If I was you I would talk to a fire marshal to find out how hot a fire in that situation might be and what the blast of black power might do to a structure as I think they might know. They would have a better education on that subject.

As to the fire safe surviving with gold that would be a good chance as the temp might never reach the temp to melt it even in a bad fire safe. It might make it change color as it does in a metal pan when you dry it. (I do placer mine sometimes) It is the paper surviving is the question. I would say that Diebold has a better record than most on their safes. Really I don't know of how to find out if it true if theirs were good at that point. As to if it could have been there at that point in time. If they were making safes at least a year before then that would be a yes it could have been anywhere in the US because of the rail system was good enough at that point to get it a good deal across the US to Minnesota and the rest by wagon.

As to the question of editing. That is locked out after 10 min to the users so that they system can catalog the information as all this is a record to locks. If you really need to change something you can contact the site admin or a monitor (Myself if you like) and we can change it for you. We had some issue at one point so it was changed.

Love to see your collection.

[Doug MacQueen]

Here are some pictures of Diebold safes that date to 1876 and earlier. The oldest is the ad of Diebold Bahmann sometime between 1859-69. A little hard to see but it is the type you speak of with the burglary chest inside. Next is a nicely restored Diebold Kienzle fire safe by Bob Stabley of LA Safe which would date to 1870-74. then we have the photo of Diebold Norris & Co. circa 1875-76 with a little safe very similar to the Diebold Kienzle. Finally is the ad from the 1876-77 directory where the name is now Diebold Safe & Lock. .

So you have choices here with Diebold and there were quite a few others that made similar safes during this period.

Doug

[Doug MacQueen]

There is little doubt in my mind that Diebold as well as many others would have had a reasonably good record in singular building fires of the time. It was the large city fires that really put them to test. Otherwise irate citizens would have likely burned the company down. Here in the state of Ohio, approximately half of the 88 County Court houses burnt down in the 1800's. Approximately half of these fires were set by irate local citizens. A fact they didn't teach us in high school.

The technique of using explosives was used in the Boston fire of 1871?, where according to records, things didn't work out so well. But it does make for a good story. Doug

[yaxley]

Thanks Doug and your info validates what I wanted. The pictures help a lot.

Thanks Dean. All the input helps. No problem with the editing, I just wanted to add a few other interests in my first post...