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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
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    Wisconsin
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    Default Victor Cannonball Style Safe

    After a long search I have finally purchased a cannonball safe. It is a Victor, post 1908, bought open with a lost combination. While a little rough on the cosmetic side it is an excellent canidate for a restoration. I have retreived the combination, inspected the mechanics, and searched under the repaint for the original lettering and stripes. It had the common paint scheme for the period. I have a few questions.

    Does anyone have a paint code for the light golden green that was used on these safes. I can always have the Dupont computer read the paint but maybe somebody already knows?

    That brings up the question... Original color or custom. Here is your chance to voice your opinion, lets hear it!

    This Victor seems to be the smallest of the production units standing at 43" with no compartment in the base. I have read that there were 5 sizes, can anyone expand on that?

    Are the door and crank nickel plated? If I polish on them I get a steady black residue, so that is what i assume. Would it be more practical to have them replated in chrome? The door also has (engine turning) as does the time lock plate. Is this done on or under the plating? The time lock plate has the pattern much deeper than the door.

    I just love this safe. it will make a nice companion to my Briggs & Son http://www.antique-locks.com/showthr...ghlight=briggs. I hope to keep this project on the fast track and finish it this summer. Thank you in advance for your help. Ray

    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
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    Default

    I forgot one other thing. This safe has a Bankers Dustproof three movement time lock with a solid door. Unfortuneatly the latch is missing. Can anyone provide a picture or information about this latch? Or better yet, a parts doner? I have been on http://www.my-time-machines.net/ but the one pictured there does not show the latch. Help!

  3. #3
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    Default

    Ray here are a few picture that may help. I think the paint you are referring to is called aluminum bronze. It was pretty popular on bankers chests and cannonballs back then. It is the lightest color door in these pictures. That is a good question about the turning and I will ask a local guy Doug Seybold, who does this on antique car dashboards. He is currently doing the plates on an Ely Norris that NatSafeMatt and I are working on. Doug
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 041_41.JPG   DSCN1389.jpg   DSCN1395.jpg   IMG_0022.jpg   IMG_0023.jpg  

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  4. #4
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    Default

    Thank you for the reply, Doug.

    That door in the picture is the same as my time lock door. I don't understand how they make it slide back and forth when the hole that it is in is round. Have you ever been inside one?

    You pegged the color with the door picture. Have you painted that color and do you have a number? I am eager to hear more of the "engine turning" pattern.

    My safe read on the side: MANGANESE STEEL VICTOR PATENTS, but did not list the patent numbers like some did. Does anyone know the numbers that were listed? Thank you. Ray

    For those who are curious here is a picture of the ring & pinion gear assembly under that glorious plated cover. Note the brazing on the pinion gear and gate timing wheel. I never realized that the screw style door closes until it is wedged solid. The pinion gear takes on tremendous forces to move the hundreds of pounds of steel from the closed wedged position as does the gate timing wheel when the crank is attempted to be turned while the combination is locked. The keyways were worn and a poor repair was done. The shaft will have to be built up, remachined, and a new gate timing wheel made.
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    I dedicated my engine stand to this project and modified it to be adjustable to move the heavy door. I have done several mock installations to make sure the replated door will not get scratched.

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  5. #5
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    These pics are from a slightly later model so take that into consideration. It appears that I did have to set the door in place in order to remove the hinge before I could remove the outer pan with the dial. Is yours the same? Doug
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSCN1371.jpg   DSCN1372.jpg   DSCN1378.jpg   DSCN1387.jpg   DSCN1391.jpg  

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  6. #6
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    Ray, I don't do any painting so I can't help out there. I made a mistake on your safe as it is the fine thread model made for only a few years (roughly 1905 to 1908) prior to the coarse thread. All of the pics I posted were coarse thread. So the patent list is little different and less of them. I will try to find a picture with it. And it shouldn't be too hard to get a sample of the timelock catch to make a copy cause there are a lot of Victors out there.

    On the gearing, normally there shouldn't be too much pressure on the pinion when the door is properly ground and hung, but once this is no longer true it can get excessive and left unattended will do some damage. Rust is most often the cause for extreme pressures to be put on the gearing teeth. That's a great idea using the engine stand by the way. Doug

  7. #7
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    Thank you again, Doug.

    What did Victor put on the sides of the safe? Patent numbers or dates. I just happened to think... there is a patent plate on the rear of the door. I had wrapped it up and set it aside. So, if they used dates, I have them. The plate has a Dec 1, 1908 date so the safe must have been made after that. I was under the impression the course threads were first. Please elaborate if you have more information.

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    I checked my door alignment more carefully breaking out the feeler gauge to do so. I improved it slightly mostly by adding more preload on the threaded door pins. I don't think I had the top one tight enough. The door and bore surfaces have been polished and it turns fine until the door closure alignment marks are about 3/8" apart. At that point there is no space around the door, it has to wedge into place to align the marks which confirm the time lock is aligned. I have used chalk marks on the door and on the bore to check for interference and it looks good. What is the proper procedure for door alignment? What do you use to protect the metal surface from rusting and should the threads be lubricated? If so, with what?

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    For the curious, here is how the door is adjusted on a Victor cannonball. The door pivot pins are threaded for height adjustment and pointed for centering and low friction.

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    The door hinge is adjustable horizontally by rotating an offset bushing in the upper and lower hinge mount on the safe body. The hinge pin is held tight by nuts on each end to make sure the pin does not turn in the bushings (which are very soft) and that the hinge pivots on the pin.

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  8. #8
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    Where is the "like" button on this thread?...cool project!!

  9. #9
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    Ok here is the corrected patent list as I see it.

    622,753 Apr 11, 1899 but marked Apr 1, 1899 on the tag

    629,764 Aug 1, 1899

    635,291 Oct 24, 1899

    645,448 Mar 13, 1900

    676,061 Jun 11, 1901

    706,877 Aug 12, 1902 but marked Aug 12, 1904 on the tag. In this patent is the first mention of "non workable steel or alloy" in other words manganese steel

    750,792 Feb 2, 1904

    905,180 Dec 1, 1908 this shows the coarse thread model

  10. #10
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    Here's a few pics showing the relatively fast evolution of the Victor round door. Several of the big makers started with similar small round door chests in the 1890's, quickly turning to larger cast manganese steel cannonballs in the early 1900's. Doug
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 1st model Victor Screw Door  pat 1899.jpg   2nd model.jpg   2nd model 1899-1902 patents.jpg   3rd model.jpg   3rd model  1905 ad.jpg  

    3rd model ad.jpg   3rd model round body 1906 ad.jpg   Coarse thread  1912 ad.jpg   side view of coarse thread door.JPG  

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