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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    30
    Country: United States

    Default Another early key to look at

    Here is a key I purchased at the Lancaster show last year, 2011. It is the oldest key in my collection, from the 1500's. I got it from someone who bought it in Parma, Italy. A real gem.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails KW1501a.jpg   KW1501b.jpg  

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    73
    Country: UK

    Default Help required in identifying old key

    Hi.
    Calling all key experts! Please help me to identify and date this old key.
    Thanks in advance.
    Patent.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Key 1.jpg   Key 2.jpg  

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    188
    Country: Canada

    Default

    This is a beautiful key and made by a skilled Locksmith.
    The keyway is a Trefoil type of design.
    Warding is based on the Bridge Ward principle. Which means
    the warding plate has the wards on both sides of the bridge.
    Dating is some what problematic. The style and skill indicate
    manufacture from about 14th century to the 16th century.

    Not sure if it was a lost wax casting or else a brazed assembly?

    I have seen both types of manufacture pre-dating your key
    and also post-dating it.

    The warding also has comb wards for added security.

    Nice hand made keyhead design.

    Overall this is a custom designed key for a very important use.
    Back then a key was additionaly displayed as a sign of nobility
    a social rank. Keys were worn externaly as a badge of Office
    or Royal patronage. These are the possiblities but the exact
    history is a matter of speculation.


    Brian ................................................

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    73
    Country: UK

    Default

    Thanks,Brian for your comprehensive reply.
    I would never have thought that the key could be at least 400 years old.
    It has stood the test of time, has a wonderful patina,and is in remarkably good condition.
    I think that the Brazing technique has been employed in its construction,the key is 4 1/2 inches in length.
    The Trefoil stem still retains its form, the bit is also in good shape,possibly suggesting that it has had minimal usage.
    Any idea of it's origin?
    Thanks.
    Patent.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    188
    Country: Canada

    Default

    You are welcome Patent.
    Your fantastic key is a prize.
    It contains elements of French, German
    and British design. Perhaps a well connected
    Master Locksmith made this from his favorite
    parts of others designs?
    Back before the internet..yes many younger people
    have no idea of what hard book learning and be able
    to converse in person with a Master was like LOL
    Locksmiths had to learn from all possible sources.

    I have included some jpegs of a German key for the ribbon
    keyhead; a pre-revolution French Lost Wax key for the
    shaft, Trefoil keyway and Comb Wards;
    and a Tubular handcuff key for the keyhead, which was brazed.

    Brian................................
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Key medievil padlock 3.jpg   Key French arrow 09.jpg   Key 02.jpg  

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    30
    Country: United States

    Default Another key to look at

    Yikes. I sure didn't mean to stir up this hornets nest. That is the most replies to a post in 24 hours I've seen in awhile.

    I though it would be a pretty fair assesment regarding the age of the key by using the pictures in books as a guide. Several of the books have similiar Vientian type keys dating them from the late 1500 to early 1600's. This style of bow, it says, is copying Gothic architecture of that period. So with all you out there would you say the key that is referenced below as #11 and my key which looks almost identical, attached, are from the 1500 - early 1600's?

    And my second question, is using the reference books still a pretty good way to identify and date some keys? Not knowing the locksmiths from centuries ago, books are all we have to go on to identify these keys.

    So I guess in the future I'll contine to add pictures of new keys to my collection, ask questions, observe from a distance, and keep my observations to myself. Hope I didn't offend anyone. I truely value your assistance and opinions.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails KW1501a.jpg   KW1501b.jpg  

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    188
    Country: Canada

    Default

    Perhaps books and actual examples are guides and learning on some level is possible.
    Some of the keys I obtained were from a Veteran WW1 and WW2 Soldier who was a Miliatry Policeman and part of his duties were to obtain the keys to important European buildings in captured town's and city's. If they were later destroyed by Combat action then he kept the keys.

    Quite a few of the Europen key shafts were made to match the styles of furniture legs of the period. That I learned from a 86 year old Cabinet Maker way back in the late 1980's. He inherited locks and keys from another elderly Cabinet maker after the Apprenticeship period.
    Then he passed them onto to me. It was with the implicit understanding they would be passed onto another intrinsic collector and life long student of the Locksmithing field.

    While I agree books and photo's are a source for information, they leave out much information.
    Hands-on working and repairing of locks anf keys reveal the human side not found in books.
    The old guys in the field have acquired knowledge only passed down by word-of-mouth. So several background sources are culled through to come up with an opinion.

    What is recorded in antique books is a somewhat delimited viewpoint of the Locksmith field.
    Pictures, drawings, etchings, and other forms of graphic media are but a fraction of the background data available to us.


    I continue to look forward to learning from my fellow collectors, students and peers.



    Brian .............................................
    *********************************************

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    259
    Country: UK

    Default

    I'm going to concur with Brian, though without any certainty. Craftsmen and styles travelled about Europe, and were practiced at various times and places. However, the OP's key could well be venetian/italian, renaissance (say 17C?), and, as he hinted, quite likely a chamberlain key rather than a functional one.

    Although lost wax casting seems an obvious way of making such bows, all I have seen have actually been brazed. Zinc, incidentally, was used long before its identity as an element was certain.

    On books, afaik, making 'steel' is first recorded in the 17C (from memory, Agricola); but the Romans certainly used steel knowingly, and many mediaeval tools had steel edges welded on. So indeed, books must be read with care - they are rarely complete.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio USA
    Posts
    1,433
    Country: United States

    Default

    Brian, you forgot Venetian. And zooming in on the bows of both keys, you can see they were brazed. Both are wonderful treasures. Thanks for posting them. Doug

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    188
    Country: Canada

    Default

    Doug...I stand corrected.
    I didn't hink about that possibility.
    Venetian is an area I will have to study
    to fill in some missing knowledge ;o)

    You are welcome.
    I use some of the antique keys as a basis for making
    drawings for silkscreen prints.

    So many graphic designers fail to use or realize that
    real antique keys have to be used for authenticy.

    Brian.....................

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