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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio USA
    Posts
    1,433
    Country: United States

    Default

    Gerry, now that you are here, I have several questions to ask of you. I am sure Brian is interested as well. I will post them one at a time so as to keep things simple. Where is it that you have found that brass (copper/zinc) was first used as a brazing alloy in the 17th century? I looked up and found that zinc was first discovered in the 1300's. Of course that does not mean it was used at that time in alloy with copper for brazing. I am purely trying track down history. Doug
    Last edited by Doug MacQueen; 12-05-12 at 11:19 AM.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    142
    Country: Germany

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    dr. morgenroth from key and lock museum in velbert, germany, told me about
    and you will also find it in wikipedia (sorry in german): "Fest steht wohl, dass Messing
    erstmals gezielt um 1550 n. Chr. aus Kupfer und Galmei erschmolzen wurde, es
    aber erst um die Mitte des 17. Jahrhunderts verstanden wurde, Messing aus Kupfer
    und Zink zu erschmelzen."

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    188
    Country: Canada

    Default

    Greetings All:

    One thing I dislike is a:
    -subjective observation which makes a definite statement about an area the person knows little, at best, about.
    Why would I make this assertion?
    Because I own the Keys and their Lock mechanism.

    Sure I make mistakes and own up to them. I never claim absolutes
    about locks or keys.

    On the basis of a timeline My first collecting experiences started in 1960.

    Since then it has been a continuous learning experience. After becoming a Federal Government Security& Investigations Officer I asked for my duties to include Investigative Locksmithing. Being a Certified Police Weapons Instructor it added to my knowledge of
    the mechanics of locks and keys. The term Lockbolt for a Firearm
    comes from the basis that a Locksmith was also Gunsmith several hundred years ago with the primative projectile weapons. A Locksmith would forge and hammer the Firearm parts.

    Additionly I am a graphic designer who researches the roots of graphics across time and civilizations. Thus my observations and opinions are based on observations made since my studies of graphics in 1970. I don't know too much about photography and won't venture too far out on a limb about what I haven't explored or have enough experience to make scant claims about.

    [quote] brass for brazing is genereally used at first in 17th century.
    **********The Roman Empire used to join their finger ring keys with soldier made from kind of metal alloy. The Chinese civilization were amking sophisticated Bronze & Bras castigs of several hundred pounds
    about 5,000 years ago. Us idiots in the western civilization just started recently to practice this art? Amazing ;o)

    [quote]the first key (europelocks) is clearly younger, never 16th century.
    on the market there are a lot of keys like this, maybe 19th century
    or later, please see picture 11 and 22.
    *********Dating is a subjective opinion, unless we can bring the long deceased original Locksmith back to life through a seance?

    [quote]original keys from this period looks different in handle and bit
    coming at first from italy, 33, 44
    *******There are so many variations that practically no one can state just what a matching design would resemble?

    [quote]patent: your key looks great - if it is brazed with copper. but there are no sign of a german key, bit and handle is italian, shank
    is also known in france. 66
    ******* I have no idea what your numbers refer to? There is a intermix of stylistic design cross overlaps

    [quote]brian: first picture is asian/russian padlock key
    second picture french 18th 19th century
    third picture is not to identify, if orginal than french, if cast than fake
    ******You are way off base with your subjectives observations.
    The French key came with the original surface mounted lock.
    It is much older then you assert.
    I have made Lost-Wax castings from bronze.
    This included the carving of the Wax;
    building the plaster case around the Wax with flute holes;
    placing the plaster in the sandbox;
    then the heating and pouring of the molten bronze;
    finally placing the freshly caste bronze in a tub of cold water to temper it.
    Additionaly I have made sand castings of bronze.

    Some replacement keys I made from metal stock with hand tools.

    So from a practical hands-on viewpoint I do possess experience
    about casting and fabricating Keys and Lock parts from metal.
    Just because something is caste doesn't make it an automatic
    "fake" to use your word.

    Brian ................................
    **********************************************

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    30
    Country: United States

    Default Another key to look at

    Yikes. I sure didn't mean to stir up this hornets nest. That is the most replies to a post in 24 hours I've seen in awhile.

    I though it would be a pretty fair assesment regarding the age of the key by using the pictures in books as a guide. Several of the books have similiar Vientian type keys dating them from the late 1500 to early 1600's. This style of bow, it says, is copying Gothic architecture of that period. So with all you out there would you say the key that is referenced below as #11 and my key which looks almost identical, attached, are from the 1500 - early 1600's?

    And my second question, is using the reference books still a pretty good way to identify and date some keys? Not knowing the locksmiths from centuries ago, books are all we have to go on to identify these keys.

    So I guess in the future I'll contine to add pictures of new keys to my collection, ask questions, observe from a distance, and keep my observations to myself. Hope I didn't offend anyone. I truely value your assistance and opinions.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails KW1501a.jpg   KW1501b.jpg  

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Toronto
    Posts
    188
    Country: Canada

    Default

    Perhaps books and actual examples are guides and learning on some level is possible.
    Some of the keys I obtained were from a Veteran WW1 and WW2 Soldier who was a Miliatry Policeman and part of his duties were to obtain the keys to important European buildings in captured town's and city's. If they were later destroyed by Combat action then he kept the keys.

    Quite a few of the Europen key shafts were made to match the styles of furniture legs of the period. That I learned from a 86 year old Cabinet Maker way back in the late 1980's. He inherited locks and keys from another elderly Cabinet maker after the Apprenticeship period.
    Then he passed them onto to me. It was with the implicit understanding they would be passed onto another intrinsic collector and life long student of the Locksmithing field.

    While I agree books and photo's are a source for information, they leave out much information.
    Hands-on working and repairing of locks anf keys reveal the human side not found in books.
    The old guys in the field have acquired knowledge only passed down by word-of-mouth. So several background sources are culled through to come up with an opinion.

    What is recorded in antique books is a somewhat delimited viewpoint of the Locksmith field.
    Pictures, drawings, etchings, and other forms of graphic media are but a fraction of the background data available to us.


    I continue to look forward to learning from my fellow collectors, students and peers.



    Brian .............................................
    *********************************************

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    259
    Country: UK

    Default

    I'm going to concur with Brian, though without any certainty. Craftsmen and styles travelled about Europe, and were practiced at various times and places. However, the OP's key could well be venetian/italian, renaissance (say 17C?), and, as he hinted, quite likely a chamberlain key rather than a functional one.

    Although lost wax casting seems an obvious way of making such bows, all I have seen have actually been brazed. Zinc, incidentally, was used long before its identity as an element was certain.

    On books, afaik, making 'steel' is first recorded in the 17C (from memory, Agricola); but the Romans certainly used steel knowingly, and many mediaeval tools had steel edges welded on. So indeed, books must be read with care - they are rarely complete.

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