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Thread: Sargent lock

  1. #11
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    Doug, There was an article in the Jan-Mar 2011 issue of the "Journal of Lock Collecting" by John T.Grist that went into quite the depth about the use of the square pins. Apparently Sargent used the same cylinder with the round holes that was drilled clear through and squared them out on one side. The pins could be stepped allowing for a single pin with two pin hights to allow for a master key. The key hole was wider at the bottom where the blade of the key fit and the master keys were offset apparently from the reguler keys. Actually quite the novel idea for it's time. Unfortunatly John never mentions in his article the age of the lock, and I have tried to contact him numerous times for his oppinion with no responce. I would like to reprint the article,but the ALCA has it copywrited. Mark
    Mark A. Billesbach

  2. #12
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    From the info I have gained from a few older locksmiths they said it came out around 1930s and lasted a about 10 years and then slowly slipped into the backwaters of time. I know of one person that has a pin kit but he is unwilling for me to go and get data from it so I kinda question the fact of the contents of the kit. It is marked that it is a square pin kit from the one time I noticed it in his shop. I have a cylinder in my collection... I will have to find it and do a picture shoot of it.

    Still looking for the blank..... so many boxes of blanks. I need to get rid of a few.

    If Billy doesn't post in on this I will have to write him and ask.

  3. #13
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    Thanks Dean, I'm still thinking it's from the twenties maybe early thirties but I could be all wrong. Hopefully Billy will check in and give his input on it also. It would be interesting to see what your key dating comes up with. Mark
    Mark A. Billesbach

  4. #14
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    Dragged kicking and screaming into a discussion about a square pinned padlock. Who would have thunck it. No offense meant. OK, so it sounds like a stepped wafer lock as far the master/ change key way is concerned, which in turn enlarges the picking area. Which in turn generally increases picking odds. Its been a long time but is that Sargent "U" keyway? Not the most difficult keyway in regards to picking, so if thats the keyway that was used, I'd say the square pin idea was on the whole, a waste of time and most likely a selling point. Now that is just the opinion of a former locksmith, but obviously it is a great find as a collectable and an interesting bit of pin tumbler history. As to John's article, the patent (s) are always available. Doug

  5. #15
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    Doug, you're right, it would pretty darn easy to pick a square pin cylinder,especially if it had the wider keyway. However I would think that back in those days,outside of locksmiths, there probably weren't a lot of folks with the tools or knowledge to pick a lock so it was for all practical purposes a novel idea. The other thing that I wonder is if the square pin patent was issued in 1897, wouldn't they have tried to put it into production soon after? And being that it probably wasn't very successful right off the bat,they probably didn't produce them for very many years. Now that being said, in John Grists article, the locks were of the fancy scroll design. So that leads me to wonder how many years Sargent used that scroll design. So far I haven't been able to find any patents for the logo design, but maybe I'm just not looking in the right places. Any help out there would be appreciated. Thanks, Mark
    Mark A. Billesbach

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pschiffe View Post
    Your Keil 108 aftermarket key blank crosses to Sargent 265B original. This is an obscure and perhaps restricted keyway. I'm guessing your padlock may have been for a railroad application. I'll check with the Sargent Key Records Department and see if I can get any information.

    Pete Schifferli
    I heard from Ron Shanley of Sargent Key Records Dept. today. He believes your padlock was made in the 1920 - pre WW2 era. No further infomation available.

    Pete Schifferli

  7. #17
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    Thanks Pete for the information. Do you have any idea on how to do a copyright search on the scroll logo? Mark
    Mark A. Billesbach

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldbiscuit View Post
    Thanks Pete for the information. Do you have any idea on how to do a copyright search on the scroll logo? Mark
    No, sorry Mark; no idea. The company was incorporated in 1864 as Sargent & Co. ... They set about making locks with standardized parts and simplified the inside workings of their new line of locks. The locks were stamped "S&Co".*

    *from Locks and Lockmakers of America, Revised Third Edition by Thomas F. Hennessy

    Pete

  9. #19
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    I tried a trademark search at the US Patent and Trademark web site for an owner of "Sargent and Company" but did not find this. The earliest result returned was dated 1897. It's possible they did not register this as a trademark.

    Jim

  10. #20
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    Here you go... it is a bit older than I thought or was told it would be.

    As to the attack issue. This isn't about resistance against attack more than gaining keying potential in master keying. About the same time they came out with there own master ring cylinder to gain a better capability to master keying. This was before the math for that subject was truly understood.
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    Last edited by Dean Nickel; 02-06-11 at 01:54 AM.

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