Please help I.D. this safe.

[matty]

Hello,
I would like to find out what this safe looks like in original condition, I have been told it is a Silas Herring or Urban McNeil approx.1840? But I can't find any photos, I'm not trying to sell it, I just like it and want to make it look good, it doesn't have the inner doors, so I need to fabricate a pair.

So here is some pics, (hopefully) since taking the pictures I have sanded off one of the western paintings to reveal the fruit basket with the red bird diving toward it, (with 320 grit on a d.a.) when I have the time I was planning to do the outside, also I have wire brushed the leafing around the outside, and the base color is red?

The lock looks similar to a Brahma circa 1784? seven blades, with a barrel/bit key?

The door jam area is cast iron, the door handles are brass, with "298" stamped in them?

Another thing is that the wheels are not mounted perfectly square, so maybe from England?

I have spent a lot of time searching for a picture of this thing, I really appreciate anything you have to say! Thanks, Matt.

[matty]

Hi again,
The dimensions are, 49" inches High (43 without the wheels and L brackets), 36 and 3/4" Wide, 28" Deep.

And I'll try to get the fruit basket pic on, Thanks again!

[Doug MacQueen]

Matty, that is an odd one if the keylock was original to the outer door. It was obviously designed to replace a large combination lock. The basic style of the safe is typical of the safes coming out of Cincinnati, OH in the 1870's-80's. The earlier makers include Jos. Hall, MacNeale Urban, Diebold Kienzle and Mosler Bahmann. My first guess was Jos. Hall. But a study of the possible combination locks that would match the overall shape and size of the keylock case might lead to the maker. And on that basis I would lean toward Diebold Kienzle. Doug

[matty]

Hi,

Thanks so much for the info, I will start looking for those names!

The lock looked very original to this, when I broke out the mortar to remove it, it all looked very uniform? and the bolts in the picture are very crooked, like hand made?

And I made the key in the previous picture out of three keys.

p.s. I just found more pictures, the key in this one is a blank, a very nice and helpful man at a local lock and safe shop gave me a bunch of blanks!

Thanks so much again! Matt.

[matty]

Hi,
So, the key lock could have been changed from a combo. lock? Sorry I am a little bit absent minded right now, my Dad and Sister both just passed away.

I forgot about the extra bolt holes under the back panel, that "do" have mortar in them? maybe at some point it was totally taken out for repair and re-poured?

Also, from all the reading I have been doing, I see what looks like the "acorns" on the hinges are removable, these look to be one piece castings?

Also, a safe dealer told me to take off the back cover to find information, after removing the cover on the very rear of the safe, I called him back and said to him, "there is nothing back there except cement?" (and he responded, "there's a cover on the back!?)
(he meant of the door...)

What do you think the chances are of finding a picture of an original one like this? It's just that it has the leafing around the edges, the slats, with the waves and the four squares! It's just such a menagerie of lines to come up with a good paint scheme???

well here is some more pics...(ground down bolts near lock area, internal mechanism,
back cover, hinge (maybe can see the roughness of the casting?) the extra bolt holes under the back panel)((and I was trying dark red on the leafing?))

Thank you very much Doug!

Matt.

[NatSafeMatt]

Hey Matt...sorry to hear of your loss. Perhaps this safe project will help in keeping your mind busy. The acorns should just un-screw. They are usually cast...but with threads. They have prob. been in there forever...so it may be hard to screw them out. I have a friend that can custom make them if need be. PM me and I will give you my phone number...always interested in talking to other antique safe people. There are many knowledgeable people that frequently visit this site...I'm sure you will find much info. about your safe. Take care and God bless.

Matt

[matty]

Hi Again!

Yes, this safe is one of the last things I talked to my Dad about, thanks for your kind words! I have never owned a safe, I have always just collected keys, and made them.
(cut them to fit)

About the acorns though, I have several years experience with automotive engines and fabricating with steel, I can see the casting line on the acorn and continue on across the main body of the hinge?

Although, the right door has shims between the two hinge halves, the left side doesn't, but both left door hinges do have what appear to be mold lines that look like they may unscrew, but I filed them, and I am fairly sure they are one piece also?

(I wire brushed and sand blasted one of the hinges in the pic)

Also, the four corners of the doors are broken where they meet the stop pad thingy, that is held on with two screws in the very center (have pics)

And the four stationary bolts, (that engage when doors are closed, are marked with a center punch, 1,2,3,4) (have pic of #4)

Well, I guess that is all the stuff I've seen that might mean something? Maybe the right door was blown off, then repaired at some point?

I have read where other people are looking for serial numbers, any ideas where to look for one on this old boat anchor?

Thanks again,

Matt

[NatSafeMatt]

Sorry I can't be of help...those close up pictures really show the details of the acorns...they do look like they are all one piece. I have never seen them like this. Only the type that un-screw. Then again, i've only been into antique safes now for a couple years. There will be someone who will come along and know exactly what this safe is. Check out the antique safe collector Guy Zani...he's prob. seen it all. Let me know if ever there is a time you need the safe pinstriped or gold leafed. In the mean time...keep serching the internet...search antique safe on E-bay every once in a while (if you haven't already). Take care.

[Doug MacQueen]

Matty, the lack of ready access to the lock and the nonremovable hinge caps forces me to rethink my first post. Now I am thinking yours may be 1860's vintage. I will stick with CIncy as the makers location. Only 3 makers existed during most of that decade, Diebold Bahmann, Dodds, MacNeale & Urban and the Jos. L Hall Safe Co. I have found Bramah type locks on the inner doors of both Hall and MacNeale & Uban safes. And these were identical locks with large cast iron cases somewhat like yours. But Diebold was the only one not making their own locks as far as I know during this period so I will stick with Diebold Bahmann. I do have a picture of another unknown smaller safe which also uses a Bramah type outer door lock and has fancy cast iron trim. When I find it I will post pics. Unfortunately none of the paneled safes that I have pictures of have the original paint. Doug Dodds, MacNeale & Urban preceded MacNeale Urban

[matty]

Yes, I do believe that is the date another person told me, I might have said 1840 by mistake, sorry.

I did see a Diebold the other day with the same style holes for the inner door locks and hinges. I keep getting confused when seeing Mosler-Brahman and Diebold-Brahman?

Due to the decorative features of this one, could you say anything about who would be more likely to order this model? i.e. Hotel, Railroad, Store, Bank?

I would be very grateful if you could post any pics of one like this, whether original or not! I have a few ideas about the paint scheme, but it would be nice just to see another one!

Thanks so much,
Matt.