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  1. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    17
    Country: Ireland

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    Thanks very much for the above information. The lock in the second picture looks really nice and I wonder why such a complicated key would be needed for what looks like an internal door lock. A picture of the front of the lock would be nice to see. I have a collection of early Georgian and Victorian Dublin door locks and keys and the keys are normally not too elaborate.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Dublin
    Posts
    17
    Country: Ireland

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    I enclose a few photos of one of my larger Irish Locks. I am sure it is hand made and it is off a back door of a large country house.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails lock1.JPG   lock2.JPG   lock3.JPG   lock4.JPG  

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio USA
    Posts
    1,433
    Country: United States

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    The similarities between the basic designs of the two locks posted so far are too great to be co-incidental, even if the the key warding styles range from fairly simple to somewhat complex. I am getting a real education here on a period that appears to be the end of the warded lock designs, at least as concerning the British locks. I feel that both locks were as much machine made as hand made. And the cases are very similar to many of the lock cases of made here in the US in the early to mid 1800's. It also looks like the warding on the more complex keys, was in fact, not hand done. Very interesting though and now I am wondering how they would have machined them. Thanks for posting the pictures. Doug .

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Devon UK
    Posts
    3,117
    Country: UK

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    Bramah made some of the first machine tools but even Chubb were making their locks basically by hand in the early 1800's. I am confident that the locks and keys were substantially handmade, but as these fine locks and keys were basically off country houses or quality commercial premisess they spent a lot of time to make the locks and keys look immaculate. There were substantial manufacturing premises, but often work was done in a shed in the locksmiths backyard, working as outworkers. I suspect that the better locks would have been made in a larger factory though. Times and locks changed very slowly then and a pattern would be reproduced for generations. Limited key differs were extended by careful variations of many, many aspects of the key, where warding had distinct limitations especially when masterkeyed. Keys were made to the lock because interchangeability of parts came much later.
    Indeed even now Chubb cannot make their high security lever locks to particular heights. They cut the keys and then cut the levers to the individual keys.

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Aberdeenshire
    Posts
    697
    Country: Great Britain

    Default Old Safe Keys.

    Very interesting to see Halflock's comment on the three suited box-of-wards keys nos. 1, 3, and 4 and that there is even a difference in the positions of the cut for the levers.

    I am attaching a photograph of the lock and original key from a wrought iron chest made by Jas. Gray of Edinburgh around 1830. There are three levers each with the tightest tolerances imaginable.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    The original key was misappropriated by persons unknown but fortunately Tommy Watson was able to fashion the excellent facsimile illustrated in which he has even managed to create a slight convex radius in the horizontal cuts. Such skill.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Well done Tommy.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Posts
    73
    Country: UK

    Default Old Safe Keys.

    Thanks for the picture of the lock, Safeman. Tommy made a very nice replacement key .
    And now for a picture of a very similar lock by Jas. Gray of Edinburgh with an original Key.

    Patent.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Gray. Edinburgh.jpg  

  7. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio USA
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    1,433
    Country: United States

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    Yes, it does seem that the locks would most likely have been primarily hand made. I had forgotten that George Price gave a good account of the state of the art in Wolverhampton prior to 1856. And how amazed he was to find that Chubb was possibly the most resistant to using machine tools all the way up to the time when the book came out. Given the fact that steam engines were being made and used since the late 1700's it does make you wonder. Anyway my main interest is in finding out exactly how these keys were made. I see casting did start and stamping as well in the early 1800's for some keys. I know for a fact that the radius cut was chiseled out on some earlier keys but what about the later ones. Obviously Tommy Watson has achieved mastery in this work. Will he share his knowledge on this? Doug

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio USA
    Posts
    1,433
    Country: United States

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    While at the Lancaster lock show I met Europelocks and had the pleasure of seeing his key collection up close and personal. What a pleasure! I purchased from him the second key down of the four shown in this thread posted on July 2. I didn't want to break up the mastered set. The more I look at this key the stranger it gets. After close inspection, it appears the ward cuts are primarily cast in the blade. Very little in the way of tool marks can be found except for the radius cuts and even there it is hard to determine exactly what was done. For the most part on the key very little in the way of filing or turning in general on the key can be found indicating a final fine sanding and polishing was done. It also appears the bow may be cast separately and soldered on. The blade and shaft are cast together as one piece and then the blade tapered. Where this tapering was done leaves the most noticeable tool marks on the key. Even the post hole appears to be cast in. For that matter even the two lever cuts appear to be cast in, strange as that sounds. So far I have been resisting the temptation to cut the key apart to inspect it more closely. I will try to take some close up pictures and post them. Doug

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Cleveland, Ohio USA
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    1,433
    Country: United States

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    Well at this point I have not cut the key apart. With a magnifier I can just pick out fine file marks all over the bow. And fairly noticeable graver cuts where the bow is attached. So the question is why the graver cuts? At this point I am fairly convinced this key was cast including the ward cuts. In the one pic of the blade there is a bit of steel left at the bottom of one of the wards. I don't know if it shows well in the picture but the blade (beard, bit your choice) was definitely tapered after the key was cast. Not sure why this wasn't done first. the shank has a slight taper and appears to have been smoothed on a large grinding wheel except for the area where the tapering was done. Sand cast or lost wax? Although it looks like a parting mark (sand cast) inside one of the ward cuts, I don't see parting marks in other cuts. Any thoughts?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails DSCN2586.jpg   DSCN2584.jpg   DSCN2589.jpg   DSCN2593.jpg  

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