Attachment 20981 Attachment 20982 Just as you say Safeone.
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Attachment 20981 Attachment 20982 Just as you say Safeone.
Cepasaccus, thanks for such a detailed reply listing the various German/European safe ratings, that must have taken some considerable time, if only more members would participate with such in-depth contributions.
I realise now that my wording 'RAL v EN hornets nest' might have caused some misunderstanding. I wasn't questioning the tests/gradings as in 'versus each other' or questioning their integrity or standards, I meant it purely in terms of the your quote "For insurances E10 is now equivalent to EN1143 grade VI", ie; the older RAL gradings being incorrectly classed as equivalents of the later EN ones.
Your reply is however incredibly detailed and have to say thanks also for confirming the test house responsible for the RAL-RG testing in Germany back then. It is all these snippets of information that collectively make this site the amazing resource that it is.
May I add my appreciation to Cepasaccus for the background to the German/European testing and certification system.
Coming right up-to-date, I learn that there has been insoluble conflict between EFSG and ECB-S which has led to Eurosafe forming an independent test house named SECOTA. (Security,Equivalent,Certification,Organisation,Te sting & Auditing). see below.
Frankfurt/M. – November 2018. On the 19th of October2018, the first official meeting of SECOTA took place in Frankfurt am Main. The working group, made up of international representatives from all sectors of the physical security and insurance industry, has set itself the goal of making laboratories easier to compare in the future - through regular comparative tests. Here, test philosophies and processes should be harmonized, thereby creating a transparent industry platform for the continuous exchange of experience.
While I'm at it, I also learn that the UL has recently introduced a new lower grade to the TL10 called RSC (Residential Security Container) resistance time 5 minutes with small common hand tools.
https://news.ul.com/news/residential-security-container-standard-revised
Hope that nothing above conflicts with the External Site Links referred to recently but as I don't really know what the term means - what the hell.
Huw, thanks for your clarification. I don't know from where the public insurance grading table comes from. I is certainly not a mandatory classification. I asked an insurance about a PTZ graded safe and they didn't know about this grade.
I didn't know about EFSG and SECOTA. Thanks for mentioning them. VdS is a bit ... arrogant or at least boasting a lot about themselves. Maybe they need to do this to keep their position with the German insurance companies. But some of their gradings are really strange, e.g. the KL3909 lock - grade B. :(rofl): I think they are becoming all more and more paper tigers. I am sure for politics EFSG <-> SECOTA does make sense. It would be interesting who is participating in the SECOTA comparison.
UL 1037 is in 6th edition from 2016. So RSCs must be at least that old, but can be older. There is again the problem that it is very difficult to get information about old standards. My guess is that RSCs are older than 2016, but that their requirements have been modified just like the transition from German A/B safes (construction) to S1/S2 safes (security testing). I have found an RSC certificate from 2004, which supports at least that RSCs are older.
An update regarding PTZ:
The purpose of this was government usage, like the GSA etc. in the US. The PTZ existed approx. until the government owned Deutsche Bundespost was converted to Deutsche Post AG private stock company. Until then the safes were certified by them. So in the 1990s there were three certification schemes running in parallel, PTZ, FuP, VdS. For needs by German secret agencies the PTZ has been replaced by the BSI (Federal Office for Information Security). From the former levels I to IV with and without a there is only I and II left with the labels SG I VS and SG II VS (Verschlusssache = classified document). They are basically grade A (single sheet walls) and grade B (double sheed walls) safes with some special requirements. These are an opening counter, lead shielding for combination locks and approved locks. The approved locks are standard commercial locks. Germany is not as big as the US.
Government usage in the pre 1995 era included e.g. Deutsche Bundespost (mail, phone system and bank), Deutsche Bahn (railway), central banks. So there was really a huge demand for PTZ-certified safes.
Many thanks again to Cepasaccus for such a detailed update
The Gem thread never dies!
Definitive answer, six were sold for use in the UK. Mainly to the cash and carry chain. Probably all the same size, I forgot to ask if they ever made the bigger size.
Still reckon it qualifies for your list Huw. Not exactly a mass production item. Don't want to ever have to drill one, like the Treasury models that Stainless and ceramic peg fill is killer stuff.
Alan
I occasionally chat to Roger