Unlocked or not

The details of the French floor safe that I am researching are in my post ''Who made this safe'' but I now have a specific question and hope I am correct in starting a new thread.

There is already a 3/4'' hole in the centre of the backplate and I have an old inspection borelight so looked inside and here is a rough sketch of what I can see.

Attachment 19342

Unfortunately a shelf has become dislodged and is hiding the lower half of the mechanism BUT, the centre horizontal bar is undoubtedly already retracted away from the main lock on the right, and I think the upper diagonal bar may also be retracted.

If they are indeed already retracted, is it likely that the lower bars are in the same open position, and if they are, how far might one have to turn the key to open the safe.

I managed to get a photo of the inside although it is restricted.

Attachment 19343

The more I read about these old safes the more intrigued I become and while my main interest is finding historical facts for our local researchers, it would be fascinating to see the inside and perhaps have it working again.

Thankyou.

Here is mine.

And here is the lock removed. Note I am pushing down on the bar to unlock after aligning the wheels. The keylock operates the main horizontal bolt and the combination bar blocks it.

Hello Doug

First of all, I thank you for your input and the photos of your very decorative safe.

I had not noticed the bar before, because it is difficult for me to get down to look through the hole in the back and also because the bar is almost hidden by the shelf which has fallen down and is jammed on an angle. I suspect the shelf is touching the end of the bar.

I have looked again at the positions of the sliding lock bars and I think they are all retracted ( in the open position). I have run a feeler gauge around the door from the outside and cannot feel any locking bolts except at the key lock.

The key turns easily almost 1/4 turn to the right, when I can hear something rattling, turning the key to the left (from vertical) it turns almost 180 degrees and then stops (with no noise).

The door is not central in the safe having dropped down, but I have been able to lever it up so I know that the hinges are not seized at all.

Given that the back is relatively thin and the steel not especially hard, I think that I am going to open up the existing hole, for I should then be able to dislodge/move the shelf away from this bar and this will also enable me to see if there are any papers or anything else below the shelf however, I will have to wait a few days before doing this for my wife is unwell at present and the safe being adjacent to her bedroom, I do not want to make a lot of noise and the safe is far too heavy for me to contemplate moving it outside the house.

In the meantime I will continue with my research on French websites although I am not doing too well in that regard. A french forum similar to this one is not helpful because no photos whatsoever !!! and I think many records were lost during the 2 world wars. Research on Spanish websites is very limited because Spain seems to be at least 20 years behind the rest of the world regards Internet technology and again, they suffered greatly during the Civil War and under Franco.

I am therefore most grateful to you for your help

On many of these safes the keylock operates both the doors bolt work and a seperate spring latch bolt contained in the keylock housing located at the opening edge of the door. On my safe, after rotating the key to retract the main boltwork, further rotation in the same direction retracts the springbolt.

Although I have yet to find a definitive diagram/explanation of this particular safe lock, thanks to your photos I am beginning to understand how it all works.

Because I can see so little of the keylock on the inside I think I will definitely now open up the back some more and hopefully move the shelf as this will give me the best chance of possibly opening the door without damaging anything. I am quite a good welder so I can easily make good the opening.

PS: The sketch I made earlier is incorrect, for I drew the upper horizontal bolt on a diagonal, but I have just looked at it again and now I am sure it is horizontal as are all the top bolts in all the photos of other safes that I have seen. At 76 years old and with stiff joints it is difficult to lie on the floor at the right angle to view these things but the mental activity is welcome and rewarding.:(y):

Sid, it is possible the shelf is blocking the action of the bolt work. Also possible a problem in the keylock. Note that on my lock it takes 2 full rotations of the key to retract the boltwork. This is common on many French safes. Also note that on mine the combination lock blocking bar can be engaged in both the extended and retraction positions of the boltwork. So if the main boltwork is retracted and the combination is locked, the key will not be able to make the turns to extend the bolts. From your description, it sounds like this is the situation. So it may be just the spring latch bolt holding the door shut.

It is also possible the problem is the lever lock key itself, being too worn to activate the lock. Just another possibilit.

Agreed that a worn key could be a problem, yet it looks good with no obvious wear so I am of the opinion that it is something to do with the lock blocking bar, but I need to clear the shelf so as to be able to investigate further. I can however see that the blocking bar is protruding through the centre horizontal bar and here is a sketch of it showing it's present position.

Attachment 19351

I have to leave this for a few days but will be back when/if I manage to move the shelf.

Many thanks

Having given much thought to the possible opening of this old safe, I decided to move it outside the house to my workshop and with a few hours work this morning the safe is now open without damage to any of the mechanism, and here it is. :)-:

Attachment 19356

The locked lower compartment ( with no key ) was opened by drilling 2 holes, making a long screwdriver and removing the lock, when I could then retrieve the contents and here they are on top of the safe.

Attachment 19357

Nothing of any financial value but a great many papers from many local Town Halls dating back to 1930 to 1940 and this will be of huge interest to our local historians.

For my part I am now completely hooked on the restoration of this safe and the first job will be to dismantle the keylock to determine why it will not turn the required amount to open the safe.
The second job will be to investigate the 4 alphabet dials which at present rotate freely ( I cannot hear or feel any clicks) so I need to find out the present position of the mechanism so as to determine the letters of the combination.

Any help or suggestions gratefully received and a special thanks to Doug MacQueen for your very valuable help thus far. :)-:

I am now answering my own question ! hopefully it will help someone else in the future.

Having now taken off the combination plate holding the four dials I can understand why I could hear no clicking while turning the dials and it is because the inside part of each dial has only one groove. Thus in order for the combination bar to drop, one must enter correctly the four ( secret ) letters which on this lock happens to be ROSA. Once the bar has dropped, the safe can be opened with the key.
If the bar is then pushed down a little further, 4 circular leaf springs are raised thus retracting a pin on each and thereby the lettered dials are disengaged allowing one to change the combination letters. Simple but jolly clever and still in good order after perhaps 120 years.

Attachment 19358

Is that a rather nice leather case as well?

Hello Chubby

Yes, it is a nicely tooled leather case and there were some interesting papers inside where we found the army ''call up'' papers for the owner of the safe in 1935 ( just before the start of the Spanish Civil War, plus various Pharmacy Diplomas from the University of Granada for the same person.

My wife has started making enquiries in the village in the hope that we can return the contents to the family of the original owner and I have spent today working on the keylock which is in a very poor state. I originally though the key was in good order but now I find is is so worn that it is simpler to make a new one from scratch, so I made the key today and will be doing the final fit tomorrow. 5 of the 6 leaf springs are broken or missing so I need to replace those but I enjoy this sort of work now that I am retired

Please let us know what happens.

Hello Chubby

The look on a Spanish ladies face when I told her today that the safe was open was a joy to behold and enquiries are now being made in another town some 20 miles away where we think the relatives or friends of the original owner may still be alive.

I have now made two new keys and the main lock and also the interior compartment lock are working well but I now want to replace all the broken leaf springs.
Today I asked a local ''locksmith'' if they could supply me with some leaf springs but they just looked surprised and said '' the only springs used in locks are coil springs''. Needless to say I wrote them off! I am quite capable of finding some suitable leaf springs or indeed making them myself if I have to, so that is the next stage.

I had said earlier that the hole in the centre of the back must have been drilled by a locksmith, but I now think that is incorrect because there was a large nut inside the safe and the hole was no doubt where it had been bolted to a wall.

Last job today was to clean the combination plate with the 4 dials and then I could see where someone had hammered on this plate, presumably in the hope that something might happen to allow them to open the door however, not too much damage, and I am not going to grind/file/polish them out for it all adds to the history of this safe which was all hand made and which will now be functional as well as decorative.

It is very good that you are so pleased at your discoveries.

So often opening a safe consists of blowing it with an OA torch, and then scrapping the remnants. Contents are rarely of any interest to anyone.

[QUOTE=Sid;28624]Hello Chubby

The look on a Spanish ladies face when I told her today that the safe was open was a joy to behold

Always a good thing!

Thanks for sharing your adventures with this safe, you have described it all very nicely. And lovely that you found something really interesting inside. I have learned quite a lot from this thread.

There are plenty of youtube videos of people destroying safes in an attempt to open them - hardly an intelligent approach - but I am interested in the history of this safe, the history of this area of Spain and also the Company who manufactured this safe, for I like mechanical things that last and which can be kept working in this modern ''throwaway'' society.

I can find no makers name etc anywhere inside this safe and enquiries on the supplier Viladot of Barcelona have returned nothing, but I have found several safes by Verstaen ( Paris France) with similar features but the French are very guarded indeed about giving ANY information, even with regard to safes which now are certainly ''antiques''.

Hello Parautoptic

Delighted that you find it all of interest and I will post more photos as and when.

Little bit of vegetable oil is excellent for reviving tired leather.

First of all I am most grateful for the help received on this forum which has enabled me to get this old safe back into good working order.

Although I could find no makers mark anywhere, I think it may be a Verstaen. My reasons for thinking this are the shape of the brass guides, the general design of the locking mechanism and the plain oval escutcheons.

Attachment 19438

Attachment 19439

The only job remaining is to touch up the paint on the door face.

We now know that this safe was not used by the French Mining Co. and we are awaiting news of the family of the original owner so that we might return the papers found inside to them.