Hello from Anthony UK. Could I please obtain some advice on John Tann - List 2 Safe

Hi,
Firstly, thank you all in advance for any advice you may be able to give me. I am a complete novice but I have purchased a John Tann – List 2 Safe. Although I know nothing about safes, I am a very experienced steel fabrication engineer which may be a decent start?
The safe is open (Please see attached photographs) but the keys are lost. I have to remove the locking mechanism and take it to my local locksmith.
Before I go doing things I know nothing about and causing damage, could anyone help me in the procedure for removing the locking mechanism? It appears that it ‘may’ be a simple case of removing the bolts from the inside of the door and then removing the mechanism but having never done this, I would rather have some expert advice beforehand.
In addition, I will need to have keys cut by my locksmith, but does anyone know of where or if, it is possible to obtain as close as possible, replica blanks?
I am not at all interested in the value of the safe, I bought it because as soon as I saw it, I fell in love with it. Having said that, I also don’t want to depreciate its prestige and wondered, if I restore it to its former glory, would that be hugely detrimental to it? It would be a real shame to do something detrimental?
I would like to know what particular type of paint was used, it looks to me as a regular enamel finish but not sure?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated and once again, many thanks in advance for any help available.
Kindest regards.
Anthony.

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Originally Posted by antsone

Hi,

contd....
Any advice would be greatly appreciated and once again, many thanks in advance for any help available.
Kindest regards.
Anthony.

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Known in factory as the No.2 this model was made from 1869 to 1899 and then a single unit in 1914. If you give me the serial number which should be stamped into the top front moving bolt I should be able to give you the actual year of manufacture.

Havind a 4 corner bent body should put it close to the end of the series.

It will be straightforward removing the lock chamber which may stick to the door plate after the bolts have been removed as there may be a location pin or two plus the paint. Wouldn't do any harm to score the joint to prevent any flaking off of the paint.
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Most likely will require normal pin key blanks rather than pipe and of basically the same appearance as the originals would have looked.

You have done well to find one with all the original brasswork still intact. At that age so many are missing an escutcheon, or have been dropped on the handle or whatever.

As said, removing the action is a simple job. If it has never been removed it might take a bit of time to locate all the screws, but be patient and you should be fine. They had an annoying habit of grinding off part of the head to make it flush and then filling the slot with some filler. That comes out easily enough but be careful because the grinding can leave the edges of the screws quite sharp- so watch your fingers. I generally tap out to a modern metric size and use new allen bolts, but on a unit as well preserved as that I would leave it all genuine.

Your locksmith will have appropriate blanks. I don't remember them being anything unusual for that model. You shouldn't have to mention to a good locksmith- but do so any way. Ask him to alter the sequence of the levers so that if anybody still has the original key it will no longer function.

Paint types, I am afraid I can't help you!

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Originally Posted by safeman

Known in factory as the No.2 this model was made from 1869 to 1899 and then a single unit in 1914. If you give me the serial number which should be stamped into the top front moving bolt I should be able to give you the actual year of manufacture.

Havind a 4 corner bent body should put it close to the end of the series.

It will be straightforward removing the lock chamber which may stick to the door plate after the bolts have been removed as there may be a location pin or two plus the paint. Wouldn't do any harm to score the joint to prevent any flaking off of the paint.
.
Most likely will require normal pin key blanks rather than pipe and of basically the same appearance as the originals would have looked.

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Hi safeman,
Thank you very much for your reply and your advice it is greatly appreciated.
In addition, thank you for the information regarding the safe.
It would be great to know the year of manufacture along with any other history, are there any good resources you are aware of to read up on?
The serial number stamped on the top front moving bolt is: 28.878. (Please see photographs)
I have removed the locking mechanism and taken it to the locksmith, they are charging me £30-00 for the first key and £15-00 for any additional keys which I feel is extremely reasonable, I expected about £100-00 so really pleased with that.
Once again, thank you for your help and advice.
Kindest regards,
Anthony.

Do you want to leave it all authentic?

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Originally Posted by Chubby

You have done well to find one with all the original brasswork still intact. At that age so many are missing an escutcheon, or have been dropped on the handle or whatever.

As said, removing the action is a simple job. If it has never been removed it might take a bit of time to locate all the screws, but be patient and you should be fine. They had an annoying habit of grinding off part of the head to make it flush and then filling the slot with some filler. That comes out easily enough but be careful because the grinding can leave the edges of the screws quite sharp- so watch your fingers. I generally tap out to a modern metric size and use new allen bolts, but on a unit as well preserved as that I would leave it all genuine.

Your locksmith will have appropriate blanks. I don't remember them being anything unusual for that model. You shouldn't have to mention to a good locksmith- but do so any way. Ask him to alter the sequence of the levers so that if anybody still has the original key it will no longer function.

Paint types, I am afraid I can't help you!

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Hi Chubby,
Thank you for your reply and advice, it is very much appreciated.
I have now removed the locking mechanism and taken that to the locksmith. (Please see post to safeman and photographs)
I didn't have any issues at all with removing the mechanism once I had realised the only thing holding the back cover after removing the bolts was the handle needed removing simply by taking the bolt out from the centre of the handle, it all just came away in one piece then. I should have realised that but probably being a bit over cautious because I don't want to cause any damage and thinking things would be more complicated than expected?
A really good idea about mentioning changing the sequence of the levers, I hadn't even considered that?
I'm now trying to find a local sign writer to redo the original artwork and sure that won't be difficult?
I would like to use original (or as close as possible to original) paint if possible, so will look into that a bit further.
Thanks again for your help.
Kindest regards,
Anthony.

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Originally Posted by Chubby

Do you want to leave it all authentic?

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Yes, Absolutely, as authentic as 'possible'.

OK, if you are wanting to keep it original, I sort of bow out.

I hope it works out well for you.

No problem and thank you very much for your help.
Kindest regards,
Anthony.

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Originally Posted by antsone

No problem and thank you very much for your help.
Kindest regards,
Anthony.

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Anthony, the number 28878 relates to production during 1906 so missed out in the maker's books. The List 2 is the second quality with the List 1 having been a fire-resisting chest with lid and carrying handles. I attach an illustration giving a brief description.

Attachment 19934 It deserves the best.

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Originally Posted by safeman

Anthony, the number 28878 relates to production during 1906 so missed out in the maker's books. The List 2 is the second quality with the List 1 having been a fire-resisting chest with lid and carrying handles. I attach an illustration giving a brief description.

Attachment 19934 It deserves the best.

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Hi safeman,
As always, many thanks for your help.
I didn't realise the significance of the 'safeman' username until I understood your standing and read through your site.
All very interesting and thank you for that.
Thank you for your help and information also.
Although I almost hate myself for this, I am keeping the safe and so have decided to put my own 'theme' on it?
I am keeping everything original except for the paintwork, it is paint and can be changed when I'm gone :-)
Taking lots of photographs along the way so when complete, will post them on this site and maybe get burned, who knows?
Once again, many thanks for your help and information, it is greatly appreciated.
Kind regards,
Anthony.

That fixed drawer unit in the centre, per the illustration from a catalogue, was actually very useful, and a pain.

A pain because if you wanted to put something big inside, it could prevent you from doing it.

Useful, because a hand hole attack would give access to only half the contents. I remember in the days when I had access to unlimited amounts of armour plate. We had a safe which was quite large. I had a shelf welded in the middle of the body. The shelf was 10mm of either B555 or IT100, I don't remember which. Try cutting that!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Chubby

That fixed drawer unit in the centre, per the illustration from a catalogue, was actually very useful, and a pain.

A pain because if you wanted to put something big inside, it could prevent you from doing it.

Useful, because a hand hole attack would give access to only half the contents. I remember in the days when I had access to unlimited amounts of armour plate. We had a safe which was quite large. I had a shelf welded in the middle of the body. The shelf was 10mm of either B555 or IT100, I don't remember which. Try cutting that!

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I don't actually have that fixed drawer in the illustration? If you look at the attached pic, I only have a plywood shelf that was obviously put in after?
It doesn't look as though anything has been removed though?

There was usually a range of extras that could be bought with a safe: shelves, cupboards etc. The basic model had nothing.