Safe with both a combination lock and a keyed lock

Hi all,
I have a safe that I would like to open. It has a combination lock and a keyhole lock as well. The safe is made by M. G. Dyke and Sons. From the Internet searches I have made, it seems unusual to have 2 locks on this sort of safe. Was it standard practice in those days (approximately the 1950s) to have both kinds of lock on this sort of safe?

Does it mean that my efforts to open the safe will be doubly difficult? Not only will I need to crack the combination, but I will need to find a way to open the keyed lock.

Is this too big a challenge for a novice safe-cracker!?

If you post photos of the safe and fairly close ones of the combination lock that will help us help you. To answer your question about opening it up, yes it will be quite difficult for a novice. We can help identify what you have for locks on it, but as far as how to attack it, this isn't the place for that kind of information.

It is possible that the keylock will not be locked but somebody will have turned the dial and thus locked that lock.
I think it most unlikely though that you will get this safe open yourself and long experience says that there is unlikely to be anything left in it by previous owners. Therefore it will cost you hundreds of dollars to get it opened , when you would be better off buying a modern safe with that money. Sorry!

Thanks for the replies. I realise I could get a professional to open it. I also realise there is probably nothing in it. I also know that the brand of combination lock is notoriously difficult to crack.

Nevertheless, I want to try.

Generally though, is it unusual to have 2 locks on a safe?

For those interested, the safe is by Dyke and Sons (Richmond, Victoria, Australia) and the lock is an old Manifoil. I say old, meaning it predates the much more common Mk4. I can find very little information about this earlier lock.

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Originally Posted by soakes

Generally though, is it unusual to have 2 locks on a safe?

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No, it's fairly common.
What is in the keyhole?

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Originally Posted by kwoswalt99

No, it's fairly common.

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OK. It's just that none of my image searches for Dyke and Son safes showed any with a combination lock.

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What is in the keyhole?

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A broken-off pencil. It was like that when I found it; I assure you I didn't insert it hoping it would be a suitable key. ;-)

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Originally Posted by soakes

OK. It's just that none of my image searches for Dyke and Son safes showed any with a combination lock.



A broken-off pencil. It was like that when I found it; I assure you I didn't insert it hoping it would be a suitable key. ;-)

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I thought you were talking about safes in general. What do you want to know about the lock?

Two locks is a very common set up for a safe. It gives dual control which can be useful where cash is concerned. The locks might both be original or the Chatwood Milner Manifoil might have been a later addition.

BTW good luck manipulating a CM! You will need it.

Yes now that we've seen a picture it's very likely that the Manifoil was a later addition. It doesn't sit well against the appearance of the safe furniture.

These combination locks can be manipulated open, there is a system devised by an ex-military man, I remember reading. I don't have any knowledge of what it is unfortunately, otherwise I wouldn't still have a locked government wall mounting container sitting in my garage!

They can also be auto-dialled open by someone with a suitable machine.

I think it fair to say that you will not be at all likely to manipulate the combination open. An auto dialler is an expensive and uncommon tool that could take easily 30 hours to open it -but the owner won't want to leave his expensive tool in your garage for a few days.

Indeed on both points, but I'm simply stating what I know to be possible, even if not necessarily practical.

The most common way that a Manifoil lock is overcome by a professional is by drilling to a point where they can observe the gates, from front or rear, and usually via borescope.

I think you could be right about the lock being a later addition. There is a small chip in the metal just towards the outside of the lock. Several people (in various forums) have now mentioned that the key lock is probably unlocked (and the key might be inside), which I am certainly hoping for, but the main thing is to get the combination unlocked!

As the Manifoil is a later addition, there is probably not a hardened plate. So drilling might be fairly simple. Without wishing to sound dismissive, I doubt if that door is very hard itself.

Have you tried dialling in a default code on the off-chance it's been reset?

50 - 25 - 50 is a common one.

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Originally Posted by Arcade Al

Have you tried dialling in a default code on the off-chance it's been reset?

50 - 25 - 50 is a common one.

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Yes, I've tried several default combinations, each with the various final number options of 0, 25, 50 or 75. No luck. Having said that, I am not sure that the default combinations I have found are not all Mk4 ones; possibly the default combinations on earlier locks were different.

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I doubt if that door is very hard itself.

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I'm pretty sure it's very hard. It is quite a substantial safe. In any case, I am leaving drilling as a finalish option...

Here is a photo of the building used by the company that made the safe:
http://www.slv.vic.gov.au/pictoria/gid/slv-pic-aab32576

40 - 50 - 60 was the main Manifoil standard setting.

End numbers for the double (split) drive cam are 0, 25 and 75 depending on the mounting of the lock on the door:

Your safe won't end in zero- its only for left or right horizontal shoot (ie. wall safes)

25- down shoot (bolt shooting away from arrow mark on bezel)

75- up shoot (bolt shooting same direction as arrow mark on bezel)

50? That's a new one on me as all 4 positions are covered by 0, 25 & 75 ! Good Luck!

Silly me, engage brain before blurting..

Right-hand horizontal shoot with bezel mounted the right way up (with arrow mark at top) would indeed need '50' at the end to work, although not recommended as when mounted such, the lock is in effect 'upside down' and the drop arm Spring has to operate the full weight of the drop arm against gravity. But yes, 50 would be needed.

Perhaps I should also have been less 'certain' about the end number for your safe- 'highly unlikely' it ends in zero would perhaps be better, it would certainly need highly unusual modifications to the boltwork for the Manifoil to have a horizontal throw.

The Manifoil on your safe is most likely a very basic vertical shoot locking directly into the tail bar, and you will of course need to determine the same for the key lock, Doing so will then confirm whether the keylock is in fact locked, or unlocked (if you are lucky). Until you determine all this though Its all guesses, and I have a feeling it could get tedious at times depending on your skills and abilities, as there is only so much we can tell you on here.

As sometimes happens, there various claims about the factory default combination for Manifoils. One is indeed 40-50-60-(final number). I have images of an instruction sheet where somebody wrote 50-25-50-25. At http://www.lockpicking101.com/viewto...342&highlight= another possibility is claimed of 50-40-30-0. At http://www.security.org/search/MSL_0...CORD_NUMBER=25 it is claimed that "50" was used (R to 50, twice L to 0, R to stop) but then 40-50-60 was used for later models.

It's also possible that when the safe was taken out of service, somebody set it to whatever default was common locally rather than the factory default.

Though it's a 3-wheel lock, it dials like a 4-wheel. At least it seems that way to me.

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Originally Posted by wylk

It's also possible that when the safe was taken out of service, somebody set it to whatever default was common locally rather than the factory default.

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As an example, in the US the DoD requires combination locks be set to 50-25-50 when taken out of service, and combination padlocks to 10-20-30 (why the difference?). This is per a document 5200.1-R paragraph 6.4.6.2.1.4 (http://ipscontainer.com/pdf/DoD5200.1-R.pdf page 79 for example).

OP, factory settings aside, I think you will be incredibly lucky if youve ended up with a safe that was thoughtfully set to factory numbers by the previous user, many unfortunately weren't. Knowing some history of the safe, where it came from and who was last to use it might of course give a few clues, throw up some new possibilities or rule out others.

Dont want to be pessimistic here but more than likely it's still set to the last users combination, in which case it's take your pick, and once you start down the route of 'trying all the possible obvious ones' there's unfortunately no boundary to trying all of them.

Looking at the location of the lock, it is almost certainly going to be a downward shoot.

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Originally Posted by Chubby

Looking at the location of the lock, it is almost certainly going to be a downward shoot.

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Agreed, when you consider how far the Manifoil is down from the top door edge, allowing for the overlap of the door in the body it's virtually guaranteed to be a down shoot which will end with 25.

Interesting. Thanks for all the insights. I have a few more things to try, but I am sure this is going to be a long-term project. :(sweat):

Years later ... my safe is still securely locked.

Perhaps some of the gurus will weigh in. l strongly advise you either to get it open or dispose of it. A locked safe which you can't open is a dangerous thing to have around. lf criminals visit you they will expect you to open it. lf you can't, they might try to persuade you.

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Originally Posted by soakes

Years later ... my safe is still securely locked.

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Hello again Soakes, bearing in mind it's nearly 3 years since members assisted you with this safe, and you still can't open it yourself, I'm not sure what you're expecting us lot to say or do now. I'd have thought the 2 choices are clearly live with it locked in your garage, or pay someone else to get it open like you mentioned. Your own quote below from January 2016 says it all really.

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Originally Posted by soakes

Thanks for the replies. I realise I could get a professional to open it. I also realise there is probably nothing in it. I also know that the brand of combination lock is notoriously difficult to crack.

Nevertheless, I want to try.

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