Victor Cannonball Style Safe

After a long search I have finally purchased a cannonball safe. It is a Victor, post 1908, bought open with a lost combination. While a little rough on the cosmetic side it is an excellent canidate for a restoration. I have retreived the combination, inspected the mechanics, and searched under the repaint for the original lettering and stripes. It had the common paint scheme for the period. I have a few questions.

Does anyone have a paint code for the light golden green that was used on these safes. I can always have the Dupont computer read the paint but maybe somebody already knows?

That brings up the question... Original color or custom. Here is your chance to voice your opinion, lets hear it!

This Victor seems to be the smallest of the production units standing at 43" with no compartment in the base. I have read that there were 5 sizes, can anyone expand on that?

Are the door and crank nickel plated? If I polish on them I get a steady black residue, so that is what i assume. Would it be more practical to have them replated in chrome? The door also has (engine turning) as does the time lock plate. Is this done on or under the plating? The time lock plate has the pattern much deeper than the door.

I just love this safe. it will make a nice companion to my Briggs & Son http://www.antique-locks.com/showthr...ghlight=briggs. I hope to keep this project on the fast track and finish it this summer. Thank you in advance for your help. Ray

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I forgot one other thing. This safe has a Bankers Dustproof three movement time lock with a solid door. Unfortuneatly the latch is missing. Can anyone provide a picture or information about this latch? Or better yet, a parts doner? I have been on http://www.my-time-machines.net/ but the one pictured there does not show the latch. Help!

Ray here are a few picture that may help. I think the paint you are referring to is called aluminum bronze. It was pretty popular on bankers chests and cannonballs back then. It is the lightest color door in these pictures. That is a good question about the turning and I will ask a local guy Doug Seybold, who does this on antique car dashboards. He is currently doing the plates on an Ely Norris that NatSafeMatt and I are working on. Doug

Thank you for the reply, Doug.

That door in the picture is the same as my time lock door. I don't understand how they make it slide back and forth when the hole that it is in is round. Have you ever been inside one?

You pegged the color with the door picture. Have you painted that color and do you have a number? I am eager to hear more of the "engine turning" pattern.

My safe read on the side: MANGANESE STEEL VICTOR PATENTS, but did not list the patent numbers like some did. Does anyone know the numbers that were listed? Thank you. Ray

For those who are curious here is a picture of the ring & pinion gear assembly under that glorious plated cover. Note the brazing on the pinion gear and gate timing wheel. I never realized that the screw style door closes until it is wedged solid. The pinion gear takes on tremendous forces to move the hundreds of pounds of steel from the closed wedged position as does the gate timing wheel when the crank is attempted to be turned while the combination is locked. The keyways were worn and a poor repair was done. The shaft will have to be built up, remachined, and a new gate timing wheel made.
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I dedicated my engine stand to this project and modified it to be adjustable to move the heavy door. I have done several mock installations to make sure the replated door will not get scratched.

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Ray, I don't do any painting so I can't help out there. I made a mistake on your safe as it is the fine thread model made for only a few years (roughly 1905 to 1908) prior to the coarse thread. All of the pics I posted were coarse thread. So the patent list is little different and less of them. I will try to find a picture with it. And it shouldn't be too hard to get a sample of the timelock catch to make a copy cause there are a lot of Victors out there.

On the gearing, normally there shouldn't be too much pressure on the pinion when the door is properly ground and hung, but once this is no longer true it can get excessive and left unattended will do some damage. Rust is most often the cause for extreme pressures to be put on the gearing teeth. That's a great idea using the engine stand by the way. Doug

Thank you again, Doug.

What did Victor put on the sides of the safe? Patent numbers or dates. I just happened to think... there is a patent plate on the rear of the door. I had wrapped it up and set it aside. So, if they used dates, I have them. The plate has a Dec 1, 1908 date so the safe must have been made after that. I was under the impression the course threads were first. Please elaborate if you have more information.

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I checked my door alignment more carefully breaking out the feeler gauge to do so. I improved it slightly mostly by adding more preload on the threaded door pins. I don't think I had the top one tight enough. The door and bore surfaces have been polished and it turns fine until the door closure alignment marks are about 3/8" apart. At that point there is no space around the door, it has to wedge into place to align the marks which confirm the time lock is aligned. I have used chalk marks on the door and on the bore to check for interference and it looks good. What is the proper procedure for door alignment? What do you use to protect the metal surface from rusting and should the threads be lubricated? If so, with what?

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For the curious, here is how the door is adjusted on a Victor cannonball. The door pivot pins are threaded for height adjustment and pointed for centering and low friction.

Attachment 7747

The door hinge is adjustable horizontally by rotating an offset bushing in the upper and lower hinge mount on the safe body. The hinge pin is held tight by nuts on each end to make sure the pin does not turn in the bushings (which are very soft) and that the hinge pivots on the pin.

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Where is the "like" button on this thread?...cool project!!

Ok here is the corrected patent list as I see it.

622,753 Apr 11, 1899 but marked Apr 1, 1899 on the tag

629,764 Aug 1, 1899

635,291 Oct 24, 1899

645,448 Mar 13, 1900

676,061 Jun 11, 1901

706,877 Aug 12, 1902 but marked Aug 12, 1904 on the tag. In this patent is the first mention of "non workable steel or alloy" in other words manganese steel

750,792 Feb 2, 1904

905,180 Dec 1, 1908 this shows the coarse thread model

Ray, yes it would appear that yours was made just before they started the coarse thread model, assuming as is usually the case that production corresponds to patent. There is another patent 903,800 Nov 10, 1908 that shows the fine thread. Regarding door alignment, the slightest nick or high spot on the thread or jamb edge will cause problems but you have probably taken care of that. Was the badly rusted? The only thing I can think of is to try moving the side adjustment screw as you torque easy on the door. You may need to loosen the vertical screws slightly prior to trying this. You want to make sure that the door isn't fighting against the hinge as it moves inward. But don't force it. Good luck and great pics. Doug

Hello, I saw the thread you posted about your restoration ofthe cannonball safe. It has been helpful and answered some of my questions. Ipurchased an identical safe on ebay a couple months ago. I found this threadwhile looking for info on it. I purchased it unlocked and open ,but the combowas lost. I want to restore mine also . Do you have more pictures of the innermechanics under the front cover and also under the rear plate covering thelocking lugs . Would you be willing to share them with me? I want to make sure everything is workingcorrectly. Where did you find your info on this safe ? I cannot find any infoon these anywhere. Do you know if there is an old owners manual ormanufacturers prints out there and available? I would also like to find out howthe properly wind the time lock, I was told they run but haven't messed with itdue to my lack of knowledge. Any help would be very appreciated . Here is alink to pics of my safe on photobucket .http://s1280.photobucket.com/user/j1...nonball%20Safe Thanks for your time . James .
:(smirk):

Resist the temptation to shut the door until you have gained a full understanding of how it all works, and having locked and unlocked it with the door open numerous times. This may seem obvious but to some, it isn't. Somewhere, someone may have factory info one these but so far I haven't heard of any. Winding keys can be obtained from some jewelers who do watch repairs. Check out "My Time Machines" online for some pictures of your timelock. As a beginner on these you have a big project on your hands and you should consider finding a locksmith with considerable safe experience or better still someone with bank time lock experience to help you out. Take your time and photograph everything you do do. I do have some pictures of a door with the timelock removed. The combination dial on the outside only prevents the door from rotating and is not at all connected withe timelock automatic inside. I can't remember if the large outer pan will come off with the combination locked but remove the small screws around the pan and try that. Post again once you have tried to remove it. Doug

I would second what Doug said. I also agree to have someone you can call if you need help setup. Who knows you might get a long time friend.

These pics are from a slightly later model so take that into consideration. It appears that I did have to set the door in place in order to remove the hinge before I could remove the outer pan with the dial. Is yours the same? Doug

How time flies. I had hoped to keep this project on the fast track but life changing issues detoured it to the corner of the shop. Much like the Bermuda Triangle, the shop corner is a bad place to be. Fortunately, this safe project is on track again and a number of things have been accomplished. Just like James, I purchased my safe locked with an open door. No problem I thought as I had easily accessed the combination lock on common square safes through the backside of the door. It didn't take long to realize that the design of the rotating door and the time lock on the back of the door made that process impossible. The door on this Victor cannonball needs to be removed to access the combination. This is a tricky process as the door is very heavy.

First you will need a way to support the door. I modified a car engine stand. I don't recommend using a cherry picker with straps. It might work to get the door off but trust me, it takes some careful alignment to put it back on. Especially if you don't want to cause scratches or paint damage to freshly restored parts. Once the door is supported the decorative finial can be removed from the door hinge bolt. They are often missing, but if you are lucky enough to have them be careful as they are very soft. The finials are simply threaded on. Next, you can remove the locking bolt from the front of the door cradle that locks the door hinge bolt in place. Then you will be able to remove the door hinge bolts. Notice how you can move the door up or down within the cradle by adjusting the bolts in unison. This is how you align the door vertically in the opening of the safe body. The threads on the door hinge bolts may be damaged from the locking bolts so use care when threading them out. Now that the door hinge bolts are out the door can be removed from the cradle. This is where the engine stand works great. I can raise or lower the door to take pressure off of the door hinge bolts, clear the cradle, and it is easy to roll it around the shop. Just keep it out of the corner!

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Now that you have the door out you will need to remove all the bolts around the perimeter of the door. There are 4 bolts that secure the door cover to the door body. There is also a door pivot stop bolt which hits the stop bolt in the cradle and a bolt that supports the door pivot spring. Now the cover or pan can be removed. Inside you will find the combination box assembly, the sliding lock that is moved by the combination dial and the corresponding guides, and the pinon gear assembly. Note the notched collar on the pinion. That is how the door is locked externally when the slide moves into the collar. Now you can remove the combination box to open it up and decipher the numbers. Once you understand how it locks, this tough little safe boasting it's manganese steel isn't so tough after all. Unless the time lock is engaged. More to come...
Attachment 7750 Attachment 7751

Here is the door assembly in it's original form. Note the trigger for the time lock. When the time locks are wound up the lock bars cannot expand until the door is rotated all the way in and this button is pushed in at the precise position. That is when the timing marks are aligned on the door and safe body.

http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...8/rcilg7-1.jpg


Once I had the door out of the cradle and opened things got interesting. I opened up the combination box and quickly figured out the combination. It is a Sargent & Greenleaf, clean as a whistle. It has a nice smooth feel to it and it is a pleasure to spin the dial. The lock slide was well lubed in good condition. The pinion was another story. While the gear was in good condition there was an issue with the lock collar/washer. It was mounted to the pinion shaft on a double key way. At some point the key ways failed and a poor repair was done. A hole was drilled into the shaft where one of the key ways was and a piece of bolt was put in and cut off to fit the key way notch in the collar. Then the whole assembly was brazed together. The braze had let loose and the whole thing had a lot of play in the pieces. I have to assume excessive forces from banging the rotation stops and the wedging of the door from improper adjustment and rusty surfaces took their toll. The pinion was welded up, turned down, and new key ways cut. A new collar was also made so that all tolerances would be tight. A missing brass bushing was turned and pressed on the other end. The ring gear looked good with no issues found.

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The out side surface of the door is raw steel. Lack of care allowed the finish to rust. I had to get quite aggressive to bring the finsh back to life. Painting it would be an option but the door fits so tight (nitro proof!) that the paint will be damaged. First I took the belt sander to the surface being careful to work around the radius flat. I tried a number of different final finishes and settled on using a sharpening stone. Working the steel with a stone and oil left a flat satin finish. I offset it with a more polished finish on the door threads. The threads were a lot of work but the final look is nice. Next, the time locks...

http://www.antique-locks.com/images/.../16h3koi-1.jpg

WOW ! Thanks for all the great pictures and the warm welcome . Doug did you get a chance to see my pics on photobucket ? The door, hinge and time lock are the same but the mine is definitely a fine thread model like 00247's . The time lock is missing the original door and has a custom plexi glass cover on it . I did resist the urge to shut the door until I made sure the time lock was run out and depressed the bolt trigger . The combination dial is unlocked and taped in place. I am going to try to purchase a winding key at a clock shop in Reno. I want to find out if the movements run and the time lock functions correctly. The guy I bought it from said that they run but who knows .Since my lock is missing the door , the instructions for winding are gone. I have since found a nice picture of the directions . I want to wind the movements and bolt motor and test it with the door open. Is there any issue with tripping the trigger with the door open? Does the trigger need to be depressed for the bolts to retract? One thing I did find out after it arrived here in Nevada from Texas is that it looks like that someone cut into the back of the safe and then rewelded it up with Nickle rod. The repair was covered with a couple coats of paint. Maybe this is why the time lock door is gone , might have been damaged trying to get the safe open? After I figure out the function of the time lock I am debating weather to remove the door with an engine stand or seat the door in the safe so I can remove front cover and retrieve the combo. @ 00247 did you paint the safe body with the door off ? That seems like the way to go. Did you have the screw and jam re-plated it looks awesome. http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...25e0ef45-1.jpg

I will post more pictures as my project progresses, Here are a couple more as it arrived . I have also noticed that there are more than one timing mark on the safe body . Did this change due to wear ? Does anyone have any insight into this ? The bolts appear to be lined up with the door closed all the way as it is in the pic below. :(mm):http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...05408105-1.jpg http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...f4859e47-1.jpg

Here's a few pics showing the relatively fast evolution of the Victor round door. Several of the big makers started with similar small round door chests in the 1890's, quickly turning to larger cast manganese steel cannonballs in the early 1900's. Doug

002 the restoration work you did on that cannonball safe is just beautiful!
Very nice finish :)

Also thanks to Doug and Josh for the great pictures and information!

Regarding the index marks on the jamb, usually on round doors, there is a built in stop that correctly aligns the locking bolt. And little margin of error for proper alignment, meaning when locked the door shows very little rotational movement, with just enough to allow the bolt to freely move into place. With heavy use, these stops get beat up, allowing the door to turn a little past the mark. The cannonball doors that I have seen do seat tighter than the later lug style doors by Diebold, Mosler etc. of the 1930's and on. Wear in the hinge could alter the depth that the door could easily be screwed in and cause it to jamb up tightly. This would in turn also cause the type of stress and damage seen in the handle pinion screw and bearing. Doug

I thought I had mentioned this before but I don't see it now. If a door has serious rust problems, then using the engine stand is a really good idea as it gives better access to the door and jamb. But doing it that way should not be necessary on clean or slightly rusted doors. Just screw the door in almost all the way and remove the hinge. The outer pan can then be pulled off and the combination determined. On later doors, you don't even have to pull the pan as the combination is key changeable from the outside. Tripping the bolt detent trigger to test the timelock auto function with the door open is absolutely mandatory to ensure proper retraction of the door bolts. Wind a few hours on all three clocks, wind the lower spring shaft and trip the trigger. The bolts should extend out fast. I do not know if the trigger must be held in place on that door but it might. Retraction of the bolts should also be a fast and sure movement. Any sluggishness would indicate a problem and locking the door would then be risky. Also, at least two of the time movements should start without hesitation when wound, otherwise I wouldn't shut the door with the auto cranked up. Doug

Thank you Doug for your input in this and other threads. You bring up a good point about leaving the door screwed in and removing the jamb and pan. (keep the correct terminology coming) Because I wanted to remove my door for restoration I had never thought of simply removing the jamb to get the combination. Sometime the obvious is the hardest too see. It is funny, this little safe seems so secure, but one could easily get into it with a couple common wrenches within minutes. Provided the time lock is not set of course. I will be showing some more of the features and parts of this adorable little safe and hope you and others will comment and share knowledge about the Victor cannonballs. For now, what oil can you recommend for the time lock mechanisms, in the time lock body itself and for the time lock door bolt linkage. Do you have a favorite oil of protecting the raw metal surfaces from rust? What would be a good light grease to use on the slide (bolt?) between the combination and the pinion? It needs to stay soft and yet not creep and bleed out. Is a petroleum or silicone grease preferred? The teeth on the ring gear will need grease also. Are there any trade specific lubricants or are the normal lubes off the shelf used?

Next I will explore the backside of the door. I won't go into the combination as there is plenty of information on the internet. I was lucky that this safe still had it's original time lock from the Bankers Dustproof Time Lock Co. Bankers time locks are common on Victor cannonballs but are quite rare overall. Details on these time locks can be found at http://www.my-time-machines.net/. I would like to thank Mark for his assistance with my time lock. Here is how the back side of the door looked. In better overall shape as it was on the inside. There is a thick steel plate enclosing the rear of the door. The patent tag is mounted below the time lock. As mentioned earlier in this thread, this safe is thought to be a 1908 model as it has the earlier design fine threads on the door (1905-1908) but has the updated patent tag for the 1908 patent for the new course thread door. There are several safes that have been found with this quirk. The trim ring around the time lock is off in this picture. Also, note the piece of original carpet in the safe.

http://www.antique-locks.com/images/.../2mdoxl4-1.jpg

All parts on the rear of the door are nickel plated. The rear plate also has an engine turned design (also called jeweling, damascening) matching the front of the door. This process turns an ordinary flat piece of metal into an amazing 3 dimensional looking work of art.

http://www.antique-locks.com/images/.../35b5o9h-1.jpg

To remove the time lock each time piece needs to be removed to access the 4 bolts underneath. There are a number of spacer washers and a rubber isolator to keep track of. Now the time lock linkage is exposed. Here it is in the locked position with a picture that will show you how the trigger button in the door threads works.

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The time lock was not perfect. The latch for the door was missing for decades. Latches were a common issue with Bankers time locks. This allowed the door to flop around as the safe door rotated. With the safe open the time lock door can fall open and get pinched in the closing process, a crease in the door cover proves a careless person did just that. The doors are often missing so I won't complain. Each clock in the time lock is mounted on a spring suspension system. This along with the rubber isolators provide shock protection to the clocks from door slamming, forced entry, or explosives.

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http://www.antique-locks.com/images/.../2rrvrj9-1.jpg

With the help of Mark at http://www.my-time-machines.net/ I have a prototype latch made for the time lock door. Bankers time locks came in 3 and 4 clock versions and had doors with and without windows. Each style had a slightly different latch. I had a pleasant surprise while studying the latch opening on the door. Deep inside the opening I found that the latch return spring had somehow remained in it's bore despite the door often flopping in the down position. Thank you time lock gods! Now with a picture of the correct latch from Mark I can make a latch equivalent to the original. This is the best picture I have. Being a window style door the latch is slightly different than mine.

http://www.antique-locks.com/images/.../2yp13jd-1.jpg

What's next? Here is a shiney hint...

http://www.antique-locks.com/images/.../2zewhav-1.jpg

Here are couple pics showing successful burglaries on Victor cannonballs. The one blown open is one of the fine thread models. This very burglary may been the impetus for Victor to change the design of the door. Note that the threaded portion is actually a separate bolted on piece whereas in the later coarse thread model the door is all one piece. Special patented machines were made to cut in the grooves. The other one, burned by torch through side resulted in the encased in concrete round door chest era that followed. Apparently this was not an approved burglary method in England. (Insert smiley here).

1. Chatwood's 1865 patent gave protection against oxyacetylene 50 years later, although of course it was never designed to.
2. Except underfloor safes, only 2 round door safes were ever made in the uk (both for dairies). Round door vaults were very rare too.