Beard & Brother Type 3 Time Lock

Needless to say I was thrilled to read John Erroll's comments (posted in the 'Unknown Type' thread) about my lock this AM. I also now have a reason to get back into contact with the Miller collection with my closeup, in-focus pix for comparison with their lock. Hopefully I can get comparison pix from them for authentication purposes.

I have two questions relating to my present situation:

1. How does a collector go about establishing a value on an item when only one other is known to exist & that one is locked up in a collection? The reasons for this are both establishing a value for insurance purposes & as a basis for negotiating a selling price.

2. As I have no real affection for inanimate objects, how do I go about finding & contacting collectors who would be interested in purchasing this lock?

I suppose the answer to question one is 'whatever another collector is willing to pay for it.' Without some kind of benchmark reference figure, though, I would be hesitant to list it on eBay even with a substantial reserve figure.

Any inputs on this would be appreciated. Thanks!

Jack

Did I tell you what a rotten guy you are lately?

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Originally Posted by jacobrules

Did I tell you what a rotten guy you are lately?

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Nothing personal on my end, but aren't auctions wonderful? Especially those involving folks who have no idea what they're selling & those who have little idea what they're bidding on. eBay should have a special category for these!

Let me remind you that you were the one who had deciphered BEARD'S from those out-of-focus pix. I thought I was bidding on a Mosler 1887 type. So the advantage was yours, not mine. I'm a time lock neophyte by comparison to you, I believe. But while we're talking about clocks, even one that doesn't work at all is correct twice a day. It looks like I just got lucky.

I'm just curious, Jack. What did John say when you told him you thought "American Genius" was just a flashy coffee table book? Doug

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Originally Posted by Doug MacQueen

I'm just curious, Jack. What did John say when you told him you thought "American Genius" was just a flashy coffee table book? Doug

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As that was another topic it wasn't brought up. My criticism of the contents of his book was meant to be scholarly in nature, not personal. His reading of the nature of my lock was likewise meant to be scholarly & not personal. His book is still an invaluable reference work & is at my left wrist on my desk as I type this.

So then we'll just call it an "invaluable flashy coffee table reference book" and leave it at that, okay. I had a feeling that as you got deeper into the timelock section, which also happens to be the authors forte, you would find greater attention to detail, especially so now that you are actually using it in helping you gain a better understanding of the subject. Doug

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Originally Posted by Doug MacQueen

So then we'll just call it an "invaluable flashy coffee table reference book" and leave it at that, okay. I had a feeling that as you got deeper into the timelock section, which also happens to be the authors forte, you would find greater attention to detail, especially so now that you are actually using it in helping you gain a better understanding of the subject. Doug

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+1

He was very dismissive and critial of the author and then he edited all of his posts to remove most of the offensive stuff where he personally attacks the author. Instead of just offering up the helpful information about the errors, he unnecessarily criticized the author repeatedly.

I mean god forbid a 368 page book has some errors, right! That's like completely unheard of because we all know everything should be perfect! You mean the footnote referred to the wrong patent? Oh the travesty!!! How dare they not be perfect!! It's not like the authors are busy with other things and can't devote 100% of their time to repeatedly check the book for errors.

Perhaps they wanted to make a book to tell the world about some interesting looks that would be as accurate as possible with the limited resources and time that they had. Most people (who have lives and don't spend all their time criticizing others and trying to tear down their work) would agree that it's a very good book.

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Originally Posted by thelockcollector

+1

He was very dismissive and critial of the author and then he edited all of his posts to remove most of the offensive stuff where he personally attacks the author. Instead of just offering up the helpful information about the errors, he unnecessarily criticized the author repeatedly.

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This is totally untrue & was never my intent. I have no control over what you may have read into it, though. I thought most subscribers here appreciated my efforts as it made the book that much more useful to them. The large number of times that that thread has been viewed is proof of that.

Now, if you don't mind, could we allow this thread to get back on topic 'Beard & Brother Type 3 Time Lock' please? There must be other areas of this forum where you can post literary criticism.

Attached are 3 photos that I just received from Barbara Craycraft at the Miller collection in Nicholasville, KY. Her statement:

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These are the photos—as you can see the only difference is the inscription being Mosler rather than Beard.

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She also told me that Beard & Bro. sold time locks to Mosler bearing the Mosler name instead of Beard.


The tentative conclusion I have come to is that my lock is perhaps the unique example of the Beard & Brother Type 3 - a Mosler 1878 with the Beard imprint & perhaps some differences in the door & key/latch.


Jack

No offense intended, I'm just jealous. It's my own fault I should have been in it for more but you just keep getting so darn lucky on this one.

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Originally Posted by jacobrules

No offense intended, I'm just jealous. It's my own fault I should have been in it for more but you just keep getting so darn lucky on this one.

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In general I tend to have my share of luck. Not always, but enough. I could tell you some stories...

Given the now-established fact that there is no Type 3 in the Miller collection (despite the claim in the book), and given these amazing photos of what one of these looked like when it left the factory, I'm going to take a shot at restoring it to whatever extent possible, even if only cosmetically. If this is the only one in existence, I can easily budget $500-1,000 for my local machine shop to replace those rusted fasteners, make a sheet metal template for replacing the missing glass door window & polish the exposed metal. I would never attempt this myself because I lack both the tools & the experience & there are too may pitfalls possible: a 140-year-old screw head breaks off & needs to be drilled out, etc. The shop is only a few miles away & they have done great work for me in the past on restoring antique railroad searchlight signal mechanisms. It will be an interesting project. I'm retired so I have all the time in the world to devote to interesting projects like this.

After speaking with the owner of the local machine shop, I made the decision to go ahead with the restoration of the Type 3 starting with a meeting at the shop this Friday. After getting no interest at a reasonable price from a well-known collector, it was an easy call.

The restoration will take 4-5 months on a part-time basis & will include cosmetics as well as a key for the door lock & possible replacement of the watch movement springs if needed. I will be providing the shop with copies of the Miller pix & the King patent. The owner of the shop is familiar with all the aspects of this job so it should make for an interesting project. I will post update pix as available.

Listing #360416736222

I like how they put it as the ONLY KNOWN when we can tell from the pictures there is at least two. The one pictured on here shows that there were over 300 made but we don't know if that included the versions before or not.

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Originally Posted by Halflock

I like how they put it as the ONLY KNOWN when we can tell from the pictures there is at least two. The one pictured on here shows that there were over 300 made but we don't know if that included the versions before or not.

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How do you come to the conclusion that there is another Type 3 known? Where is it located? It isn't in the Miller or Mossman collections. I checked. This is the only known Type 3 though there may indeed be others that are not known.

All of the pix shown were taken of the same lock but by different photographers with different cameras & with different lighting. The guy selling it originally on eBay took the original pix which are the ones out of focus (front, door closed, top, bottom, hinge side, lock/release side, rear) & with different lighting. I took the others with direct sun lighting, a better camera & a good idea what I was trying to capture in the images (the engraving & other fine details). The original seller had no idea what he had so he described it as 'Antique Time Lock.'

Jack, I'm missing something here. Is this your type 3 that's listed on Ebay? I thought you said you were going to restore it. Or is this another one?

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Originally Posted by oldbiscuit

Jack, I'm missing something here. Is this your type 3 that's listed on Ebay? I thought you said you were going to restore it. Or is this another one?

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Hi Mark

Yes it is. I visited the machine shop & got some valuable inputs, such as the glass thickness needed for the door window & a rough estimate of $300-500 to make a template for the window glass, remove the door, install the glass, replace the door, polish the rusted connectors (they don't make 1870s-vintage brass connectors any more) & then leave it to me to polish the accumulated grime off the nickel-plated case. The glass would have to be antique (wavy) but the pattern of the window has 7 radii (4 corners & 3 for the hump). I haven't looked into getting such an involved piece of glass cut to fit the template but even using lasers I would guess it would be in the range of hundreds of dollars. So, with $700 already into it I'd be looking at perhaps another $1K with no guarantee I could recover an investment of that size. That's way outside my current means so I'm putting it up for auction.

No, as I told the other guy, there is only one of these known & I own it. If he knows of another I'd like to get some details about it because I don't believe in misleading people.

Jack, these are pictures of the Beard timelock at Harry Millers collection in Nicholasville, KY. It definitely says Beard at the lower left. Unfortunately these are the only pictures I have. Not being exactly clear what constitutes a model 3 Beard, I can't say it is, but comparing it to the model 2 Beard in AmGen it is definitely different. I noticed the model 2 has a part attached with brass screws which looks to be either a later reproduced part for one that was missing or just added later for a bottom control connection. Either way the part doesn't look original to the lock. Doug

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Originally Posted by Doug MacQueen

Jack, these are pictures of the Beard timelock at Harry Millers collection in Nicholasville, KY. It definitely says Beard at the lower left. Unfortunately these are the only pictures I have. Not being exactly clear what constitutes a model 3 Beard, I can't say it is, but comparing it to the model 2 Beard in AmGen it is definitely different. I noticed the model 2 has a part attached with brass screws which looks to be either a later reproduced part for one that was missing or just added later for a bottom control connection. Either way the part doesn't look original to the lock. Doug

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Many thanks, Dave. I had sent them pix of my lock & they in turn sent me pix of a Mosler 1887, leading me to conclude that they didn't have the Type 3 as mentioned in AmGen. These pix certainly appear to be a Type 3: the door, the diagonal line pattern on the case, the door lock. I was not aware of these pix before & will forward them on to them for confirmation. Where & when did you come by them? That info could help me & them out.

Thanks!

I blew up both pix with my photo editor & confirm the BEARD engraved in the same place as mine. There is no key in the keyway but this lock appears to be identical to mine & corroborates the statement in AMERICAN GENIUS about the only known example of a Type 3 being in this colection. The Miller Collection is owned by LSI & is used for teaching & training purposes, so it is highly unlikely that their Type 3 would ever be on the market. I changed the eBay listing to ONLY KNOWN AVAILABLE BEARD & BROTHER TYPE 3 & will include on of your pix for reference, with your permission. Let me know please. Thanks!

Of course you can use the pictures. They are recent and that was the only Beard or Mosler/Beard timelock that I could find in the collection. Doug

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Originally Posted by Doug MacQueen

Of course you can use the pictures. They are recent and that was the only Beard or Mosler/Beard timelock that I could find in the collection. Doug

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I may not use them to avoid confusing potential bidders. But fill me in on some details: you were actually at the Miller Collection & took pix of these there? When I asked Ms. Craycraft for info & pix of a Beard lock she sent me pix of an 1887 Mosler.

Yes, I took the pictures there very recently. Ever since I first took a timelock servicing course at Lockmasters back in the 80's, I have taken pictures of the collection when I get the chance. Unfortunately taking them through the glass case makes it difficult. Doug

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Originally Posted by Doug MacQueen

Yes, I took the pictures there very recently. Ever since I first took a timelock servicing course at Lockmasters back in the 80's, I have taken pictures of the collection when I get the chance. Unfortunately taking them through the glass case makes it difficult. Doug

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Neat. Was it labeled as a Type 3? I don't see a key in the keyway but I assume they have one. I'm hoping that they can do the same type of outside-the-glass closeup photography that they did with these pix they sent me of their Mosler 1887. These were done by their in-house media person. Nice shiots!

No it wasn't labeled at all. Nor are most the locks in the collection, unfortunately. There are about 25 glass gondola cases with a very rough ballpark estimate of 800 locks. Doug

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Originally Posted by Doug MacQueen

No it wasn't labeled at all. Nor are most the locks in the collection, unfortunately. There are about 25 glass gondola cases with a very rough ballpark estimate of 800 locks. Doug

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That's too bad. I wish I had known about your pix before I listed my Type 3 on eBay. I'm also disapointed that my inquiry to them about their Type 3 only got me pix of the similar Mosler 1887 & no info on their Type 3. It's not hard to imagine a corporate collection like this one being sadly disorganized, such as the lack of labeling & what I would assume is a lack of a central inventory list or catalog. Such a valuable collection deserves to be better organized & presented but, like most corporartions, historical collections probably have a very low priority in their scheme of things.