1823 Jail Lock- NE United States

Does anyone have a photo and any background history of 1823 jail locks? Any help would be much appreciated.

Thanks,
Greg

PS- I posted this reproduction is it close??

I am no expert on padlocks- I avoid them like the plague for precisely this reason. But I suspect this is modern lock produced in India, and aged through urine (and other methods). The fact it conveniently comes with two keys makes me view it with suspicion. There are numerous similar looking locks on Ebay, some claiming to be from Alcatraz or San Quentin. Others claiming to be Pauly Jail locks. I collect rim or jamb mounted Prison locks because the cost of making a convincing forgery would far exceed their going selling price (which is about $150 to $200 with a working key). But I could be wrong- I don't collect padlocks- Greg Wiley Prison Lock Collector

I think understand what you are referring to now. You are referring to the reforms of British Prison of the 1823 Penal Act.

There is a 1824 Chubb lock on their webpage that may have been inspired by these reforms:
http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...20140206-1.jpg
http://chubbarchive.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/page8.html

Otherwise I am not sure what you mean by 1823 lock

I am inclined to agree with Gmanphotog that the padlock is relatively modern (perhaps mid-20th century). I have one nearly identical in shape, rivet positions, etc. Although it isn't marked "Made in India," there are several things that suggest this such as a misspelling - GUARENTED. Also, the maker is not honest when he inscribes 10 levers on the keyhole cover. I can't see an American or British company being able to get away with this. Below are 2 photos of my padlock. I do have to admit it's solidly constructed.

Oop! I didn't post the picdtures. Here they are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Scott Klemm

Oop! I didn't post the picdtures. Here they are.

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Since the manufacture of any locks was centered in CT and didn't start there until 1831 it is unlikely that locks used in 1823 were made in the US. They may indeed have been Chubb locks if they were mounted to cell doors, but if they were padlocks it is most likely they were of the economically produced Scandanavian type and very likely had bull ring shackles.
BBE.

I think the idea that locks were not made in the US prior to 1831 needs to be taken with a big grain of salt. The relationship between the making of guns and the making of locks historically is a very strong one, especially strong with the moving parts of the gun, which coincidentally is known as the lock. The manufacturing skills needed were virtually the same. Since Ely Whitney did make guns here 30 years prior, the abilities needed to make locks certainly existed here. There were more than 10 US lock patents granted prior to 1831, none of which came out of Connecticut. The odds are also very great that individual blacksmith/machinists were copying or making locks of their own designs that were not patented. So while it may be correct to say that the lock industry was centered in Connecticut, it is stretching it a bit to say the first locks were made there. Doug

I really don't want to flame a US versus UK war, but I think there more evidence suggest what he is referring is something manufactured across the pond.

The question is what happening in 1823. It may not be a patent, but a Royal charter. The 1820's was a period when Chubb first expanded into detentions locks as Chubb archive article I linked to previously stated. Initially with padlocks, which as the article stated, became very popular in other countries, the US included? Don't know- probably. They also patented a dedicated prison lock in 1824, which is one I pictured. But as BBE pointed out during this period in the US, dedicated locks were rarely used.

But what is significant about 1823 is its the year Chubb became the official lock of the Royal family. Chubb locks carried this seal well after 1823, and certainly would have increased there esteem in the US. And a Chubb brother was making locks in the US at the time.

Also the lock the posted put up is Mickey Mouse shaped lock. The reason why 90 percent of the forgeries on EBay have a Mickey Mouse shape is that was shape of early Chubb padlocks.

So I think 1823 refers to the Chubb Royal seal.

Thanks all for the history and your collective experience! It much appreciated and will be shared with my client who is restoring a jail from circa 1823. This is new for me as my business is creating reproductions of door and window hardware from the late 1800s.

So what I gave I should be looking for a Scandinavian style lock, which I will pay top dollar for 12 locks with keys.

My client is fine with a reproduction, however, I want to make sure it is historically accurate down to the metal type, etc.

Thanks again,
Greg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Doug MacQueen

I think the idea that locks were not made in the US prior to 1831 needs to be taken with a big grain of salt. The relationship between the making of guns and the making of locks historically is a very strong one, especially strong with the moving parts of the gun, which coincidentally is known as the lock. The manufacturing skills needed were virtually the same. Since Ely Whitney did make guns here 30 years prior, the abilities needed to make locks certainly existed here. There were more than 10 US lock patents granted prior to 1831, none of which came out of Connecticut. The odds are also very great that individual blacksmith/machinists were copying or making locks of their own designs that were not patented. So while it may be correct to say that the lock industry was centered in Connecticut, it is stretching it a bit to say the first locks were made there. Doug

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Hi Doug,
While you seem to have read my post you obviously didn't understand what I wrote. I didn't say no locks were made in the US, what I said was that manufacturing started in 1831. You can find that information in Tom Hennessy's book Early Locks and Lockmakers of America. Before manufacturing in the US most latches were made outside of the US or by blacksmiths in the US. I seriously doubt that a jail was fitted with those blacksmith locks.

Actually by examiningTom's book there were some 18 patents prior to 1831 but like many patents I see no indication that any of them were produced beyond the patent odels required at that time. In cheecking my own files I find that there were as many as 20 X patents for locks but again no indication of manufacture. It is too bad we can't get copies of all of those X patents but they went up in flame when the patent office burned.

Jails in the US were being locked with padlocks as late as the mid 1800's, especially in the west. If the padlocks didn't have a bullring shackle they were typically used with a chain. As near as I can tell fixed locks weren't used in very many jails until the late 1800's.
BBE.

Maybe we disagree on the term "manufacturing"? Also for as good as Tom's book is, and it is amazing what he found, I suspect his research on early NYC and Philly may have been less thorough than that of Connecticut Doug

So the Scandinavian lock I posted is more than likely the lock that was used, not the "mickey mouse" lock?? What type of metal, cast iron, brass??

Thanks for the advice and help!

Greg

U.S. Custom Hardware

P.S. - I would like to buy a Bison Door knob and back plate from the Department of the Interior Building.

1823 is only 40 years after the end of the Revolutionary War. Although it's possible an American blacksmith/locksmith could fashion a handmade lock, it is more likely a British lock was used. During the colonial period, America was considered a source of raw material, and manufacturing was discouraged. One should not expect a sudden reversal immediately after the end of hostilities. Lock manufacturing in the U.S. did not really get started until about the middle of the 19th century. Therefore, in my opinion it is most likely imported padlocks were used. The Mickey Mouse shaped padlock you first posted probably resembles the type of padlock that might have been imported.

Of course the Industrial Revolution lagged in the US when compared to Britain, as well as in large scale manufacturing. However, I have little doubt that the vast majority of locks used here were simple locks made by blacksmiths. For more sophisticated locks, yes some would have been imported. But lets look at the 1813 Perkins patented bank vault lock seen in American Genius. This lock was removed from a NH bank. It shows the machine made influence of the Industrial Revolution as it was coming into its own here in the U.S. It is highly unlikely any of his locks would have seen use on jails, so I am not suggesting that possibility. But the cutting edge of manufacturing here was not quite as backward as is assumed. By 1813 Jacob Perkins had numerous U.S. patents under his belt , including a nail making machine. He later moved to Britain where he continued making important contributions to the Industrial Revolution.

Thanks, Doug, for your input. Very interesting. My earlier remarks were not meant to imply that an American made jail lock was impossible. I was merely stating (in my opinion) what is most likely. The popularity of Carpenter locks on New England American homes in the 1830's seems to suggest that British locks were still being imported on a relatively large scale.