Mosler Bahmann Sales Ledger 1887-1892

Here are some pic's of Mosler Bahmann's sales ledger from 1887-1892. It has all the safes they sold in that time period, their serial numbers, weight, who they were sold to, by what agent, factory combo's, where they went, how much they were sold or traded for (as in trades for horses, houses, land), and the best part are the notes about the transactions. Things like the depot burned down before the safe was delivered so we won't pay for it or that the agent was a G_D D__N Liar. The book is huge so I had to take pictures instead of scans because it just won't fit on a scanner. Really neat. I also have the ledgers for Mosler Safe and Lock co for 1882-1891 but that book is in much worse shape so I hate to lay it flat open for pic's. Well hold on. I'm trying to upload the pic's but having problems. Says the files are too big even with just one pic. I'll try to get it sorted out and add the pic's later.

Ok a little help from our trusty leader and maybe this will work. I put the dollar in for scale reference.

What a wounderful and interesting document. I like the recording of the combinations, no such thing as sending safes out with a std factory setting (10-20-30 etc) in those days then !

Just for information the Mosler Bahmann Ledger covers serial numbers 10640 to 19490. The Mosler Safe and Lock ledger does not specify serial numbers but does have order numbers. Now I do not know if the serial number is the same as the order number. I have no way to tell unless someone can come up with a safe with the original paint and serial number in the range of the order numbers to crosscheck with. The order number range is in the 10,000's to 29,300's. Also in both ledgers the numbers are not in sequence. The numbers are listed in the sequence the safes were sold not by serial number. I imagine that they would make a batch of commonly sold safes and serialize them then sell them. A customer may like the features of one safe over another so the ledger would not be in order. With this being the case not every serial number in the range will be covered in the ledger. Most all of them are there and they are roughly near each other in sequence but there are large gaps mostly at the begining and end of the date ranges because many of those numbers are recorded in the ledger before or the ledger after this one. Mosler records are so cloudy because the Mosler Safe Company of the 20th century was such a conglomeration of so many 19th century companies that many times it is very hard to tell which company may have actually manufactured the safe you now own. Some of the companies that eventually led to the Mosler Safe Co. are Beard Brothers, The Bankers Dustproof Timelock Company, Corliss, Mosler Bahmann, Mosler Safe and Lock, and possibly even Consolidated. There may even be more.

What an interesting document you have. I am not a collector. I would be interested in you assistance for a safe that is likely recorded in your ledger to trace the history of the unit. My grandfather had an old Mosler safe that is now in my possession. My intentions are to keep it and likely invest some money to spruce up the outside appearance of the safe. The lock/combination are fully functional. The seriel number on the handle is 14550 and there is also a lone "4" immediately above the serial number between the two 5's on the handle.

Additional Markings on the front of safe:

W.O. Hanson. (likely original owner?)

Mosler Bahmann (manufacturer)

Warner Howard and Co,agt's. (distributor?)
Dimensions: D27dx28.75wx38h (ground to top)
The combination dial has the markings Sargent & Greenleaf & Co. Rochester, New York


Is there a way for me to contact you outside the forum to get any additional information you may have in your ledger on this unit.

Also, I am looking for someone to restore the exterior without damaging it--any suggestions?

Thanks for your help.

According to the ledger I have Number 14550 was sold November 16 1889 to C.F. Wagenhals in Lancaster Ohio. It appears they had some trouble collecting the full amount of the safe price from the buyer and there are some notes of them trying to get full payment. There are two different combination numbers shown maybe an inner and outer door. As far as you saying that there is a number 4 above the 14550 it may mean the handle number is actually 414550 but I don't know for sure. As far as reconditioning the safe the only person I am aware of is Bob Stabley at L.A. Safe and Vault in Pomona. He will do an immaculate job. I also looked in the MS&L ledger and that info didn't match up either.

Thank you for your response—I have attached photos of the safe to see if you see anything that may help you identify it in your ledger. Also, the combination recorded in the ledger does not match the combination for this unit. It would be fantastic if there were anything included in these photos for you to connect your document to my safe. There is a close-up of the serial number on the handle of the safe; while the second number is difficult to read, I believe it is a “4”; but it is possible it is a “1” or an “L” or a “6”. Any additional information/insight/suggestions you may have in tracking the history of this unit are appreciated. My grandfather was a rural mail carrier in North Dakota in the early 1900’s.

Also wanted to thank you for your reference for Bob Stabley at L.A. Safe and Vault. I looked at his site and you are right, his work is immaculate, although living in the Midwest, it will cost me a small fortune to have him work on it. But, after having seen his work, I will give him a call.

Chances are high that the combination was changed since that safe was made. So I wouldn't discount that it is the right safe just on that one point.

I have been searching online for information about Mosler Bahmann's safes since it was delivered to our office today. I work for Frederick County Va and this safe was originally in the old county office building. It was recently found in the back of one of the county's storage sheds. The serial number on the handle is 20019. The top of the safe above the door reads Frederick Co. The dial has the patent information for Sargent & Greenleaf Rochester NY pat....ending with July 14, 1871. Any suggestions you have for researching the safe history would be appreciated. We are not sure where the purchase records would be located at this time because we do not know which office purchased it and when.

Just a note the safe reads "Mosler Bahmann & co around a picture in themiddle of the door. Cin is on one side of the pic and Ohio is on the other. Underneath the dial and handle is the workds H.H. Warner, Genl Ag't rochester ny.

Could you double-check that patent date? I can't find any S&G patent for 7/14/1871, in fact no lock patents at all on that date. A close-up photo of the dial might help.

Mosler Bahmann was founded around 1867. Many sources claim that when Gustav Mosler died in 1874, the company was renamed Mosler Safe Company. I believe this is wrong, both companies existed for at least 20 years, and there was even a patent infringement suit between the two companies in 1888. The last trace of Mosler Bahmann I've found is a New York City directory entry from 1898, two blocks away from Mosler Safe Co.

Warner was an agent of Mosler Bahmann from 1870 to about 1884. Some of the safes he sold had his name only (no manufacturer's name), and at various times he apparently sold Mosler Bahmann as well as Mosler Safe Co. products.

Some things that might help us help you. Pictures of the lock (inside under the door cover) and any markings on it. Pictures of the lock with the cover off and in the locked and unlocked condition.

The combination dial has "Sargent & Greenleaf" around the top then in the middle of the dial it says "Pat'd" and lists the following dates from top to bottom:September 18, 1860, January 9, 1866, August 28, 1866, July 14, 1857, EX. 7 Years, July 14, 1871. Underneath the dates around the bottom of the dial says Rochester, NY. Hope this helps? Thanks for your reply.

9/18/1860: Patent 30,092 was for a combination lock invented by George Rosner, and assigned to Halbert S. Greenleaf. So this predates even the S&G partnership. The patent was re-issued on 7/25/1871 as RE 4,488.

1/9/1866: Patent 51,973 was for an improvement in combination locks, invented by James Sargent and H. W. Covert. I was not aware of this patent until now.

8/28/1866: Patent 57,574 was for a combination lock invented by James Sargent. Re-issued as RE 4,696 on 1/2/1872.

7/14/1857 is interesting for two reasons. First, patent dates are usually listed in order and this one isn't. Second, the best fit seems to be a patent not explicitly assigned to S&G. It's 17,804 by L. F. Munger for a permutation lock that seems more like a door lock than a safe lock.

"EX 7 YEARS" has me a bit confused. Excluding? Except?

7/14/1871 seems wrong, there are zero patents on that date, for anything. In fact, that's a Friday and IIRC all patents are issued on Tuesdays.

Now, all this is interesting but it only speaks of the lock, not of the safe. Safe buyers sometimes specified whose lock they wanted on a safe, and of course through its lifetime the lock could have been changed out with a different one. And the lock could have been changed while the older dial was retained. Finally, patent dates can only firmly establish "made no earlier than" dates, not actual or "made no later than" dates (without a sample of manufactured items of known date). Still, assuming the dial and lock are original to this safe, it is indeed quite old and seems to be of similar age as the safe.

Still hoping for some pictures of the safe and lock!

Jim

"EX 7 YEARS" - could that mean that the patent got an extension? 7 years seems an odd amount to extend it.

I am thinking that there was an issue with the patent being issued and instead of going off the file date they extended it to cover the time it took to clear up the problem.

Interestingly there is an S&G dial for sale on eBay, item 320477658066, that matches the description "smkyhllw" gave.

I have a safe the serial # is 15829, 1867-1891 Mosler, bahmann & co. peter gratz. cin. ohio if you have any information regarding this safe could you please let me know. i am curious about it's history and how much it is worth. thank you for your time.
Bob Schaefer

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Originally Posted by curiousbob

I have a safe the serial # is 15829, 1867-1891 Mosler, bahmann & co. peter gratz. cin. ohio if you have any information regarding this safe could you please let me know. i am curious about it's history and how much it is worth. thank you for your time.
Bob Schaefer

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I am very interested in your opinion could you please reply to me!! Thank YOU, Bob Schaefer

Here is what the book entry has for that serial number.
Jacob

It also says that the unit was sold in September of 1890.
Jacob

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Originally Posted by jacobrules

According to the ledger I have Number 14550 was sold November 16 1889 to C.F. Wagenhals in Lancaster Ohio. It appears they had some trouble collecting the full amount of the safe price from the buyer and there are some notes of them trying to get full payment. There are two different combination numbers shown maybe an inner and outer door. As far as you saying that there is a number 4 above the 14550 it may mean the handle number is actually 414550 but I don't know for sure. As far as reconditioning the safe the only person I am aware of is Bob Stabley at L.A. Safe and Vault in Pomona. He will do an immaculate job. I also looked in the MS&L ledger and that info didn't match up either.

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I am interested in acquiring your ledger.

I service a small city hall vault in southeast Mo that is a Mosler Bahmann vault. This is the only one I have ever heard of, as the Bahmann lock was almost exclusively used on safes. The city was formed in 1880 and I am researching the city hall building for construction dates and information. This vault lock has a serial of 10900. I would be indebted to you if you can locate the sales information regarding this lock/vault sale. Thank you, DF

I looked through the first 150 pages where you would expect to find that number and the closest I came was 10906. So all I can tell you is that probably it was sold prior to July 1887. The serial numbers were put in the book as they were sold so things are not in numerical order. There is mention of vault doors in the book so there were probably others at one time. They also sold a lot of jail building supplies.
Jacob

My employer was going to have someone come down and take pictures of the safe to post, but they never did and it slipped my mind. I decided to take pictures myself, however the picture of the dial did not turn out and I am unable to remove the cover over the lock. I did manage however, to get these pictures of the safe and hopefully they can shed a little more light on the history of the safe.

Original Post:

I have been searching online for information about Mosler Bahmann's safes since it was delivered to our office today. I work for Frederick County Va and this safe was originally in the old county office building. It was recently found in the back of one of the county's storage sheds. The serial number on the handle is 20019. The top of the safe above the door reads Frederick Co. The dial has the patent information for Sargent & Greenleaf Rochester NY pat....ending with July 14, 1871. Any suggestions you have for researching the safe history would be appreciated. We are not sure where the purchase records would be located at this time because we do not know which office purchased it and when.

I wouldn't discount that it is the right safe just on that one point.

That serial number is outside the range that is in the ledger so all I can tell you is that it was probably sold after May 1892.

Which safe? Do you have a handle number / Serial Number?

Any info in ledgers on this safe? Serial number on handle is 5057. I would love to upload pictures but it says the file is too large