About to aquire a Milner 212 Firesafe - help required

Hi

I have been offered a Milner Firesafe, and wondered if anyone can help me with the weight as I need to arange transport! Sadly I dont have any pics available. On the outside there are some stamped numbers: top left corner is K4315 and on the top right is 591.

I have a key with no markings.

If the colour helps its dark 'rusty' red and black, internally it's a 'grubby' yellow.

There are 2 internal lockable drawers.

On the front there is a handle to pull the door open and a separate locking handle to turn.

Thanks for any assistance :(happy):

[QUOTE=Marmite47;29913]Hi

I have been offered a Milner Firesafe, and wondered if anyone can help me with the weight as I need to arange transport! Sadly I dont have any pics available. On the outside there are some stamped numbers: top left corner is K4315 and on the top right is 591.


Weight dependent on dimensions and quality so need photos and sizes. Made in 1899.

[QUOTE=safeman;29916]

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Originally Posted by Marmite47

Hi

I have been offered a Milner Firesafe, and wondered if anyone can help me with the weight as I need to arange transport! Sadly I dont have any pics available. On the outside there are some stamped numbers: top left corner is K4315 and on the top right is 591.


Weight dependent on dimensions and quality so need photos and sizes. Made in 1899.

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Thanks for confirming it's age, how is that worked out from the numbers I gave?

Size is approx. 22" w x 22" d x 31" h

The left hand drawer as you look at the pictures has the key broken inside the lock so I need to get that out also the drawer knob is missing, so any information on hoe to fix get replacement would be a help. I have a key for the righthand drawer.

How can I find out any other info? or is there not much more to add! :(think):

I will try and attach pictures

[QUOTE=Marmite47;29917]

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Originally Posted by safeman

Thanks for confirming it's age, how is that worked out from the numbers I gave?

Size is approx. 22" w x 22" d x 31" h

The left hand drawer as you look at the pictures has the key broken inside the lock so I need to get that out also the drawer knob is missing, so any information on hoe to fix get replacement would be a help. I have a key for the righthand drawer.

How can I find out any other info? or is there not much more to add! :(think):

I will try and attach pictures

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The weight will be about 5¼ cwts. The drawer locks just slide up and out with a little encouragement for new or repaired key.
For a bit of basic Milner history try Gracesguide Milner Safe Co.on Google. They were the largest safe makers in the world at one time.

[QUOTE=safeman;29918]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marmite47

The weight will be about 5¼ cwts. The drawer locks just slide up and out with a little encouragement for new or repaired key.
For a bit of basic Milner history try Gracesguide Milner Safe Co.on Google. They were the largest safe makers in the world at one time.

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Thanks re Google suggestion etc...

Oh so even though the drawer is locked and in place I can slide the lock up? and then get a key replaced? That's great.

[QUOTE=Marmite47;29919]

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Originally Posted by safeman

Thanks re Google suggestion etc...

Oh so even though the drawer is locked and in place I can slide the lock up? and then get a key replaced? That's great.

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Sorry, didn't realise the drawer was locked. Will you be able to manipulate the broken key to either remove it or actually turn it to unlock?
Forgot to mention that this is a List 2 Quality.

[QUOTE=safeman;29920]

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Originally Posted by Marmite47

Sorry, didn't realise the drawer was locked. Will you be able to manipulate the broken key to either remove it or actually turn it to unlock?
Forgot to mention that this is a List 2 Quality.

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That's ok, sorry if I didn't explain it clearly!

Not sure yet I can see the broken off key in the hole - its not proud of the escutcheon plate, it looks like its in the 'position' where you normally would be pulling the key it out, I have some fine instrument screwdrivers not sure they would help or I could 'attach' something to the broken piece to remove.

List 2 quality is that good / average?

[QUOTE=Marmite47;29921]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by safeman

That's ok, sorry if I didn't explain it clearly!

Not sure yet I can see the broken off key in the hole - its not proud of the escutcheon plate, it looks like its in the 'position' where you normally would be pulling the key it out, I have some fine instrument screwdrivers not sure they would help or I could 'attach' something to the broken piece to remove.
List 2 quality is that good / average?

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Narrow pointed tweezers or maybe even a magnet might do the trick or, if the bit of the key is in line with the opening tapping with a light hammer on the front plate might encourage it to move outwards.

Milner's grades begin with a List 1 which is a top opening fire-resisting chest in various sizes.
Next is your List 2 which is a fairly standard Document Safe for general commercial purposes, solicitors, church records etc. The List 3 has metal bands enclosing the body plates and a heavier bolt-on lockcase inside the door. and intended for the protection of cash as well as fire. This then progresses up through Lists 4, and 5 to the Bankers Grade.
When yours was made at the turn of the Century most bodies were square on all sides but then progressed to bodies that were bent on all corners from one piece of steel making them more resistant to bursting open if falling among burning debris.

[QUOTE=safeman;29922]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marmite47

Narrow pointed tweezers or maybe even a magnet might do the trick or, if the bit of the key is in line with the opening tapping with a light hammer on the front plate might encourage it to move outwards.

Milner's grades begin with a List 1 which is a top opening fire-resisting chest in various sizes.
Next is your List 2 which is a fairly standard Document Safe for general commercial purposes, solicitors, church records etc. The List 3 has metal bands enclosing the body plates and a heavier bolt-on lockcase inside the door. and intended for the protection of cash as well as fire. This then progresses up through Lists 4, and 5 to the Bankers Grade.
When yours was made at the turn of the Century most bodies were square on all sides but then progressed to bodies that were bent on all corners from one piece of steel making them more resistant to bursting open if falling among burning debris.

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Thanks for all your help and information. I'll try the options re the broken key. The safe has been delivered to my brothers for 'safe' keeping!

[QUOTE=Marmite47;29923]

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Originally Posted by safeman

Thanks for all your help and information. I'll try the options re the broken key. The safe has been delivered to my brothers for 'safe' keeping!

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As an afterthought, there must be a reason that the drawer key is broken. It could have been the wrong key for that lock and forced to breaking point, or it just could be that the drawer is jammed through overloading and that not being fully closed, the key was broken when trying to lock the drawer. The broken handle could be a clue.

Either way, you may have to force entry. I don't particularly wish to give detailed instructions on how to follow that path until you have a result in recovering the broken section of the key.

It has never ceased to surprise me how often there are pieces of interest at the back of overloaded drawer compartments.

[QUOTE=safeman;29926]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marmite47

As an afterthought, there must be a reason that the drawer key is broken. It could have been the wrong key for that lock and forced to breaking point, or it just could be that the drawer is jammed through overloading and that not being fully closed, the key was broken when trying to lock the drawer. The broken handle could be a clue.

Either way, you may have to force entry. I don't particularly wish to give detailed instructions on how to follow that path until you have a result in recovering the broken section of the key.

It has never ceased to surprise me how often there are pieces of interest at the back of overloaded drawer compartments.

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Thanks again, the safe is now at my brothers so the next time I am there I'll try the couple of suggestions re broken key and let you know!

[QUOTE=Marmite47;29928]

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Originally Posted by safeman

Thanks again, the safe is now at my brothers so the next time I am there I'll try the couple of suggestions re broken key and let you know!

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I should have remembered this before. It would be a good idea to check if the lock on the left drawer to see if the bolt is actually engaged. A thin plastic card slid along the top of the drawer should detect whether the bolt is up or not. Probably very difficult but if the broken remains of the knob can be unscrewed and replaced with the other one, it might help to release the drawer if it's only jammed. On the other hand, scuffed paintwork above the drawer towards the centre might suggest previous unsuccessful attempts to prize it out.

As the safe is elsewhere and to save time I will suggest how you may go about releasing it assuming the lock bolt to be thrown.

The shelf above the drawer unit requires to be forced up to allow the bolt of the lock to clear.
The central partition is attached under the shelf by a series of tenon joints which require considerable force to break. Drive a screwdriver between the top of the drawer and the rebate bar on the shelf to create sufficient space for a small chisel. This can then be exploited by a thicker chisel to enlarge the gap, preferably in line with the partition. It may be necessary to apply a small wrecking bar at the partition to displace the shelf sufficiently to allow clearance for the lock before prying the drawer forwards.

[QUOTE=safeman;29933][QUOTE=Marmite47;29928]


You could of course try cutting off the head of the bolt with a padsaw
but the lock could be awkward to repair subsequently.

[QUOTE=safeman;29933]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marmite47

I should have remembered this before. It would be a good idea to check if the lock on the left drawer to see if the bolt is actually engaged. A thin plastic card slid along the top of the drawer should detect whether the bolt is up or not. Probably very difficult but if the broken remains of the knob can be unscrewed and replaced with the other one, it might help to release the drawer if it's only jammed. On the other hand, scuffed paintwork above the drawer towards the centre might suggest previous unsuccessful attempts to prize it out.

As the safe is elsewhere and to save time I will suggest how you may go about releasing it assuming the lock bolt to be thrown.

The shelf above the drawer unit requires to be forced up to allow the bolt of the lock to clear.
The central partition is attached under the shelf by a series of tenon joints which require considerable force to break. Drive a screwdriver between the top of the drawer and the rebate bar on the shelf to create sufficient space for a small chisel. This can then be exploited by a thicker chisel to enlarge the gap, preferably in line with the partition. It may be necessary to apply a small wrecking bar at the partition to displace the shelf sufficiently to allow clearance for the lock before prying the drawer forwards.

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I was just about to send update when your reply came through!

Anyway managed to get drawer out yesterday afternoon, magnet was used to get partial/ remains of key out, sadly it only came part of the way so pliers, some strength and a few choice words were used and the drawer came out - luckily the bolt wasn't in the locked position, but I guess like you suggest the previous owner broke the knob and key trying to get the drawer open - it was just 'wedged' shut with old age.

My brother got the whole lock out using your previous advice and has opened it to get the remainder of the broken key. He also got the remnants of the knob. So my most likely last 2 questions are: can I get a replacement knob preferably genuine? And can the internal lock mechanism been 'altered' to match the other drawer lock? I am assuming that in 1899 Milners didn't have many 'combinations' for keys.


Thanks again :)

[QUOTE=Marmite47;29935]

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Originally Posted by safeman

I was just about to send update when your reply came through

Thanks again :)

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Excellent news! I would doubt if you can obtain a replacement knob handle. You may have to resort to making a wooden copy. You never know - Ebay may just come up with something.

A locksmith should be able to shuffle the levers to match the other lock and key.

[QUOTE=safeman;29936]

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Originally Posted by Marmite47

Excellent news! I would doubt if you can obtain a replacement knob handle. You may have to resort to making a wooden copy. You never know - Ebay may just come up with something.

A locksmith should be able to shuffle the levers to match the other lock and key.

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For example :

eBay item number:

302273060175

To make it for all easier accessible:

eBay Link removed- realise your good intentions as the link posted was clearly to help the OP here, but eBay links only last a maximum 90 days, after which they become a distracting frustration to anyone clicking on them, not to mention an additional waste and drain on Brian's site bandwidth! This is why members are discouraged from posting ANY external links as they rarely remain intact indefinitely.

Thanks to Safeman for all your help. :(y):

And thanks for the above link :(nod):