Printable View
Hello. I’m new to the forum. Would like to share a little about what I’m intending to do. I have been lightly cleaning the entire Safe. I am looking for advice on how to minimize the imperfections on the front. I have made contact with a person to touch up the lettering and possible gilding. My thought are to then clear coat and utilize as a home safe. Any advice on touching up would be appreciated. The safe is 45x30x27
sargent & Greenleaf mechanism.
Sorry about orientation of images.
To touch up, you can try using a satin black enamel with a small brush to touch up chips and scratches. On the art work it will be tough to match. Hard to tell in pictures but the lettering may be gold leaf but the stripes may be gold paint. It will be difficult to touch up the worn corner and not have it stand out just as much as the wear.
The old safes were covered with a coat of varnish to add shine and protect artwork. Often the finish is rough and crazed with age. Cleaners will take dirt off but will sometimes whiten the varnish. If it is dull and colorless try wiping it with a rag slightly wet with varnish. It will often shine the finish and bring out the colors but will to nothing for the aged texture. It will also help hide touch ups. Experiment in an inconspicuous spot such as on the back first to test compatibility and if it meets your needs. Careful with clear coat and test to see if it reacts with the old varnish and paint. Varnish might be a better option.
Here is a before and after using varnish to retrieve artwork.
https://www.antique-locks.com/images...2/hu35v8-1.jpghttps://www.antique-locks.com/images...2/f2v809-1.jpg
I’ll try that. Thanks. Another question I have is does anyone have a photo of the inner door latch or lock. Mine is missing. I have been watching eBay but since I don’t know what I’m looking for I haven’t had any luck. Here’s a photo of the inner door.
Has anyone replaced the hinge pins for the door on a similar safe? Besides dealing with the weight of the door are there any other issues I should expect. Will I have to have the replacements made? Or can they stilll be found?
If you could PM the measurement of the bolt pattern with the center to center and the over all case size.
enjoy Tim
I have the equipment scheduled for Saturday. I put a few drops of kroll oil on both hinge pins to soak. The oil moved freely through the top hinge. The bottom hinge didn’t. I’m not sure why. Maybe there’s a bearing that the bottom pin pivots on. Will know more on Saturday.
I used the archives trying to determine the model of this dial to date the safe. Without success. Any help would be appreciated. On the safe itself I don’t see any patent dates. I do have the eagle stating not the earlier Hall’s Safe co. The corners on the safe are rounded but not as much as pre 1900 Safe. The sold by interstate steel safe co 29 so.LaSalle st. Chicago didn’t give me much info either.
This morning I took the door off the safe. No major problems.
The pin on the left had a jagged slag as seen in the photos. I am assuming this is from unlubricated drag, it was the bottom pin. The top pin was slightly bent. Neither pins were identical. I would imagine there was a certain amount of hand fitting required to get the door position correct. Has anyone experienced a similar situation?
The projections off the ends of the pins simply look to be left rough from being parted and cut off the parent stock, quite common on rougher, non visible parts.
Its good practice to re-face and remove them, but many don't bother if it doesn't show.
There's nothing to say either of the pins are the originals, they could have been replaced a couple of times throughout the safes life as they are very easy parts to turn.
I hadn’t thought of them not being original. Thanks for the info The bottom pin is 1/8” shorter than the top pin. It doesn’t show any wear on either end. The top pin was carrying the weight. On the lower portion of each pin is a length long cut 4x per pin. Was this to bind the pin transferring some of the force to the top half of the pin? Just curious.
This morning I was again looking at the hinge pins to insure I have the correct size made this week. The top pin alone was carrying 100% of the weight of the door. Does this sound correct? The lower pin would need to be 7/16 longer to share the load. Thanks to Huw pointing out that the pins might not be origional I feel I should ask for opinions on what to do.
Cartertank it's more common for the pins to act purely as the pivots for the carriages to swing on, one resting on the other, the main vertical load being on the small mating surfaces of the two carriage faces, which often have a bronze or brass bearing spacer (like a washer) fitted between the two.
On some very heavy doors provided with adjustment the ends of the pins are made to take more load, but they are usually hardened and sit on large ball bearings at the point of contact inside the carriages. They are always precisely faced off and centred to fit the bearing.
If the door looks to have dropped slightly and appears low when closed in the body (it'll drag on the bottom if bad enough) then it might be that it originally had spacers between the carriages.
Making new ones at the same time as the new pins would then reinstate it back to how it was, but only if it's needed for the door to be correct height-wise.
I might be barking up the wrong tree whether your safe originally had the spacers or not, as I simply don't know, but a few image searches should reveal if they were fitted or not.
The origional problem was the door was tight opposite the hinge. It made opening and closing difficult. There wasn’t any spacers when I took it apart. The wear on the pin in the photo is why I thought the pin carried the weight. From the second photo can you tell if it had spacers before. Would the darker ring on the carriage face be the diameter of the missing spacer. Thanks
Having one carriage taking all the weight is a very common experience in older safes. Don't let it worry you. Of course if you can do something to get both of them doing their share of the work, that is ideal.
There will always be some side load on the hinge pins and wear can often occur on the side of the pins and/or in the hinge block itself. But after noting your statement of the door being hard to open and tight opposite the hinge, I look liked closely at the safe with the door still on. The gap on the hinge is very noticeable and none on the opening side. Hard to say why this is so. Maybe the door took a hit, or swung open so hard it bent the hinges, or the safe was dropped. Often it is due to excessive paint on the door and jamb on the hinge side, but I wouldn't expect that with only original paint. I would closely inspect the fit on both the hinge and opening side jambs. Get new pins made that are an easy but not sloppy slip fit into the door hinge. Make them the length of the shorter pin. If the door swings easily in the open position, but gets tight only upon closing, the hinges are probably okay. If it swings hard, the hinges are out of alignment with themselves. I don't like grinding on doors, but in this case that might the best solution. Focus on the opening side as is easier and will show where the rubbing occurs. Be prepared to do a lot of grinding. Continuing to stress the hinges usually results in their loosening up on the body and that won't help anything. Sometimes a large hammer can put hinges back into alignment, but I wouldn't do it on a fire safe like yours.
Thanks doug and chubby for your input. I dropped the pins off at the machine shop. They said they’d be ready in a couple of days. Called me 2 hrs later said they were finished. Great! Got em home and fitted. Shut the safe door same problem as before. I’m trying to convince myself that it’s better than before. I’m going to try some different sizes of brass washers tomorrow. It would be a huge pick me up if someone could give me a little info on my 4x combo pictured. I’ve been searching the archives to no avail. Or any info as to the time period of my fire safe. I’d like to try and figure out what building at the university may have been it’s former home.
I found this online. Maybe someone else has more info.
Hall's Safe and Lock company was founded in 1867 and was founded by Joseph L. Hall. Hall's safe & Lock "quit business" in 1892 according to later Hall's Safe Co. advertisements in their safes. For more info on Hall's look up a U S Supreme COurt decision back during the October term 1907, Number 136.
So essentially the Hall's Safe & Lock Co started in 1867 and went out of business in 1892.
Hall's Safe Co. started in 1896.
Herring Hall Marvin started shortly after 1892...
In 1907 the Supreme Court said Joseph L Halls five sons had the right to use the Hall's name even though it was sold to Herring, Hall, Marvin. The Hall's Safe Co. had to label all their safes with the following:
NOT THE HALL'S SAFE & LOCK COMPANY WHICH QUIT BUSINESS IN 1892 OR IT'S SUCCESSORS. ALL SAFES MADE BY HALLS SAFE CO. HAVE THIS TRADEMARK.
The trademark was a eagle with it's wings spread and a Hall's safe in the mid-section.
The ruling was actually in February 1908. So if Halls started with the disclaimer on the decal after the ruling your safe would be 1908 or newer.
Here is the court ruling.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-suprem...t/208/554.html
That ruling actually reversed an earlier ruling #106, if I read this legal mumbo jumbo correctly. It is here.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-suprem...t/208/267.html
https://www.antique-locks.com/images.../2lxukcg-1.jpg
Last night I found a cool Sargent and Greenleaf catalog and price sheet from 1929. It had a similar imprinted dial although it was slightly different. Here’s the link to catalog
http://w3.uwyo.edu/~jimkirk/Sargent%...%20Nr%2021.pdfimthi
the catalog did show the options for inside Safe door lock options.pg 81-84. So now I know what I’m looking replace. No improvement with door sticking. Not from lack of attempts.
Photos of dimensions where inner door lock had been previously.
I called some safe movers about moving the safe. They wanted $200 to move it 20’. Being out of work I thought I could do it myself for less. I bought 2 sheets of plywood and rented some ramps from Home Depot. I couldn’t get the wheels onto the ramp. I had to buy a come along. It was smooth sailing after that. So the safe is moved to its new home.
Great news! I asked the locksmith who made my keys for the inner compartments if he knew anywhere I could find my inner door lock? He said there was a guy in Topeka Kansas who had a lot of Safe parts. I called Mick McManis with Safe Deposit Specialty. He just got back to me he has the lock. I asked him how much? He replied he’d cover shipping and merry Christmas. He sounds like a stand up guy. I’ll post pics when it arrives.
You won't find many wealthy locksmiths, but you will find plenty of genuinely nice guys.
Just received my lock from Mick at SDS. It is a perfect fit.
Couldn't be much neater, could it?