Need help with 8 big safes

Hi everyone,

We've just acquired a commercial building and in it we have 8 big safes. There are several makes of safes and the chubbs safe have serial numbers on them, but the problem is I cant find any information as the prefixes dont match with the ones on the internet.

Im looking to get some information as to the cash rating of them, weight etc so that we can plan to either get them removed or to sell them on (preferably if they worth anything).

I have attached some photos on so if anyone knows anything about them i would greatly appreciate it.

Attachment 18566Chatwood Milner type 6220
Attachment 18567Chubbs (no serial number)
Attachment 18568Chubbs Serial D4908
Attachment 18569Remington Rand (no serial number)
Attachment 18570Stratford sterling (not sure if this is serial number SE 73012)
Attachment 185712 x chubbs serial number H870 and H879
Attachment 18572Ratner

I have more photos if required and I have 6 keys out of the 8 and all are open. Any advice info would be appreciated :)

Hello stevenkuk, I'm unable to add much from memory and as you've researched them you will already know that with the exception of the Chubb (pic #2), the Stratford Sterling and the Ratner, which are decent burglary resistive cash safes, all the others are large fire resistant safes intended for fire protection of paper documents. They were often called 'record protection cabinets' back in the day, the term 'cabinet' being the hint as to their focus of importance of fire protection over security.

You will probably find you'll get more interest in the cash safes than the others, but often any value takes a big hit against the cost/work involved in moving them, unless of course your business specialises in heavy lifting/moving equipment!

The Chubb in pic 2 with the distinctive hinges, from memory they made a few varying models of that appearance, from a lower range Commerce to a pretty heavy build anti-blowpipe (ABP). The latter had similar hinges but were even thicker IIRC, but without numbers and unable to see door/body thickness difficult to tell.

Stratford made several versions of the Sterling, four in total IIRC, if the serial number you've posted is correct its probably a later Mk4 version. Might have a Sterling brochure, plus similar Chubb for idea of weights, and possibly the Chatwood Milner, but unfortunately be a while before I can look for them.

Thank you Hew! that was very helpful and I appreciate the info on the fire resistant cabinets.

The building is is being completely renovated with escalators being removed so even though we don't specialise in heavy lifting and machinery, we may be able to get them moved at the same time by the workmen! (Its on the second floor as well! :(sweat):)

For the chubb, I do have a photo of the doors

Attachment 18581

Attachment 18582Attachment 18583

and also the number thats on the stratford. (as you can see it looks like someone just stuck it on hence why im not sure if its the serial number)

Attachment 18584

If you do come across the stratford brochure that would be very helpful as it would make a big difference to find out if these cabinets and safes weigh closer to 4000kg or 1000kg.

Just checked my own notes/drawings and your Chubb (pictured with door open) looks same as the 'Standard ABP', but the one I saw had a chrome backplate under the handle and keyhole escutcheon. Door was 1.75 inch outer protective slab, and the boltcase housing the mechanism and back pan another 4.75 inches, so door was 6.5 inches thick overall.

Some Stratfords can be a pain to ID and date, as mentioned here:
https://www.antique-locks.com/showth...light=Sterling

I have a Sterling brochure somewhere.

Details from the brochure:



The big size- which is 700mm wide is effectively a ton.Nice safe. The door is the strongest part. I wouldn't necessarily believe that a dymo label on the outside is the serial number of the safe. Of course it could be.

Chubby, do please forward me the brochure and I will be pleased to insert it.

For the chubb a picture of the inside boltwork by opening the back chamber would enable us to id it, but if not am thinking commerce or abp
Careful with rem rand as I think they have asbestos in the fill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gary Stephenson

For the chubb a picture of the inside boltwork by opening the back chamber would enable us to id it, but if not am thinking commerce or abp
Careful with rem rand as I think they have asbestos in the fill.

---

His belief in the abilities of his builders to shift these safes is probably optimistic. And I think that Stevenkuk is going to find it a costly business to get these 3 safes removed from the second floor especially as the fire safes will be dumped.
if someone can estimate their weights then the realities of removing them will be clearer. Sorry to be the bearer of unwanted news but this is the nub of what he was asking.

Just realised, stevenkuk you haven't given us any heights or dimensions for any of them. I'm trawling through crates of chubb and CM right now, no exact matches so far but I've found what looks like the Chatwood-Milner in pic 1 badged as Chubb 6220, so weight should be similar- is yours 73 inches tall X 29 3/8 inches wide? if so then 712kg.

What are the heights and widths of the others?
I've found similar for the Chubb in pic 3, if around 38.5 inches tall X 24.5 wide then it's a lightweight at 260kg.

Tbh none of them (not even the Ratner) are going to be anywhere near 4000kg, but I can understand how knowing the weights beforehand will help with assisting the contractors. Since you mentioned them removing the escalators, they're presumably not your average 'general builders' so will hopefully be okay as IIRC escalators can only be dismantled so far and then removed in complete sections, the safes might even prove the easy part !

Stratford SE 73012 will be a size 3520 made in 1972 and weigh about 970 kg.
The Ratner will be a size 5020 and if the code on the bolt end is SUR it will be an Executive, and if STR it will be a Trustee.

The weights will be very similar at around 1600 kgs.

The Cash Ratings will be approximately £4000 for the Sterling, £8000 for the Executive and £10000 for the Trustee but my personal belief is that these Ratner figures are unrealistically high.

The Chubb safe has a code stamped in the middle bolt but I cannot make it out and in any case I don't have the codings before 1964.

Attachment 18585

Is there a number on the top edge of the door of the Chubb? If so, what is it? that would tell you the exact weight.

"The Cash Ratings will be approximately £4000 for the Sterling, £8000 for the Executive and £10000 for the Trustee but my personal belief is that these Ratner figures are unrealistically high."

interesting, If it was my money going in it between the Ratner and something modern with 10k cover like a Chubb Duoguard, I would pick the Ratner every time.

Amen to that.

Safeman's surprised me with those figures, I'd have thought the Sterling would be ok for £7-8k, perhaps even £10k at a push, and more like £15k on the Ratner. Realise ratings are always subjective and it varies between insurers, but they seem a bit low.

If I had 15 grand in cash laying around I'd happily keep it in either of those two before any modern euro grade 1 or 2 box!

Wow, thank you everyone for your help.

Gary: Thanks for giving me the heads up! That cabinet is huge... I think that will be the most difficult one to remove and now i know that it may have asbestos makes it even more difficult.

Huw:

The sizes (in cm) of the following safe
Pic 1: chatwood milner - 63d x 73w x 185h
pic 2: Chubbs - 60d x 70w x 80h (close up of the photo shows the number etched in the middle bolt is H1611 THANKS SAFEMAN!)
pic 3: chubbs - 60d x 60w x 130h
pic 4: remington rand - 100d x 130w x 165h
pic 5: stratford sterling - 70d x 70w x 110h
pic6: chubbs - 65d x 65w x 175h
pic 7: ratner - 70d x 70w x 150h

Chubby - there is no number on the top of the door for the chubbs in pic 3. I checked everwhere, but safeman has pointed out the number is on the middle bolt (H1611)

Gary - funny you should say that... theres a note in the Ratner which explained that this was used for cash!

So should i check the end of the chubbs bolts to find more markings to identify the model?

Oh by the way, forgot to mention some of these safes are actually in a strongroom! Any ideas how these are dismantled/ removed?!? Or is it a case of not bothering :(whew):

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by stevenkuk

Oh by the way, forgot to mention some of these safes are actually in a strongroom! Any ideas how these are dismantled/ removed?!? Or is it a case of not bothering :(whew):

---

I think you now realise the problems.
Not one, but three that are 1.5 tonnes each, designed and effective at resisting attack but without modern insurance rating certificates, and on the second floor, along with a load of asbestos safes.
if they were on the ground floor in a loading bay, they would cost you a lot of money to have removed.
i would recommend that now you know the weights, your builders should be consulted and see what they say.

The other contributors to this thread dwarf the knowledge that I have, but I suggest you post images of the strongroom for them.

There are "portable" strongrooms made of modular parts that can be dismantled and moved, however many(most?) strongrooms will be part of the building & not worth removing.

I have seen people sell a strongroom door & frame before, but the costs of removing and transporting them will usually outweigh their value.

If you leave the strong room intact but do not intend to use it as a strongroom, then consider having the door disabled and made safe (to prevent accidental lock ins) by a suitably qualified safe technician. This should not be a destructive process & as long as you retain any parts that are removed, the door could be returned to service at a later date if required.

The most usual way of removing a strong room within a building is to crane a 35 tonne demolition machine onto the top of it and work downwards, throwing the rubble down a lift shaft.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Huw Eastwood

Safeman's surprised me with those figures, I'd have thought the Sterling would be ok for £7-8k, perhaps even £10k at a push, and more like £15k on the Ratner. Realise ratings are always subjective and it varies between insurers, but they seem a bit low.

If I had 15 grand in cash laying around I'd happily keep it in either of those two before any modern euro grade 1 or 2 box!

---

Hello Huw,

As regards the Ratner, I think I was mistaken in thinking it was one of the post 1970 Ratners made by Tann whereas from the handle it appears more like a T4 which had a rating at the time of only £6000 for reasons which I cannot go into on this site.

Why was a Sterling IV safe made in 1974 given cash rating of £2000 yet today seems to be good for £10,000?

The main problem with safe ratings is that decisions by insurers were usually based on in-house makers tests (demonstrations). You say that you believe the ratings to be too low but the reason the British safe industry has been descimated is that the unsubstantiated commercially driven high ratings caused long established companies like Tann to go out of business after almost 200 years.

When the LPC came to establish the British safe testing authority in 1990 at Borehamwood I was invited to work with the test team in setting up the training techniques which reinforced my belief that despite the misgivings, made me realise that this was the most reliable means of grading a safe as it included all the equipment and methods that could be brought to bear in reality (apart from the fatigue factor).

There are ongoing discussions regarding the standards of some European test houses.

It has just occurred to me to ask, are any of them anchored in?

Good point chubby... im not sure as i havent tried to move them yet.

[QUOTE=stevenkuk;27702]Wow, thank you everyone for your help.

Gary: Thanks for giving me the heads up! That cabinet is huge... I think that will be the most difficult one to remove and now i know that it may have asbestos makes it even more difficult.


Remington Rand - Giving this some thought I would be very surprised if asbestos had been used as insulation. Much more likely to be Gypsum (plaster of Paris) filled door and body cast over a chicken wire mesh to give the whole structure strength and rigidity to minimise the chance of bursting open in a building collapse.

There might be a little asbestos in any tape used to help seal the door rebates.

Lastly, I would estimate the weight to be in the region of 650 kgs.

I was warned by some American openers definitely in the body fill, not just the sealing tape.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gary Stephenson

I was warned by some American openers definitely in the body fill, not just the sealing tape.

---

Thank you Gary, that is not generally known.

However, as far as stevenkuk's original enquiry is concerned regarding the disposal of these units, there should be no problems regarding the Remington Rand cabinet.

The Health & Safety Executive advises - "as long as the asbestos is in good condition and is located somewhere where it cannot be easily damaged, then it shouldn't be a risk to you".

Understood, it was just a warning for him to be a bit careful with this one as it will be quite an old unit and we will all have come across the older fireproof stuff with leaking or breaking down barriers / fills and always better safe than sorry with this stuff 8-)

It is usually simple to see if a safe is anchored. Just look for threaded bar in the base with big nuts attached. If they are there, simply remove the nuts. It would be worth getting some WD40 on those now, so it can be soaking in.

Of course there are ways of base anchoring which do not show nuts. In the very unlikely event that that has happened you are in trouble!

There's three types typically used to look out for; hexagon head bolts, hexagon nuts on studs, or cap heads (Allen bolts), any of which are easily seen recessed down in the base. Unlikely to be anything else.

Unless there are fixing lugs cemented into the floor. Then you have problems!

Thanks guys... just wondering how much the cash safes are worth as i have a locksmith who is interested in some of them.

Also we've found 3 more safes, taking a total up to 11!

Attachment 18605

3 more fire resisting cabinets there.

Safes are worth what anybody is willing to pay for them. That is usually disappointingly little.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chubby

3 more fire resisting cabinets there.

Safes are worth what anybody is willing to pay for them. That is usually disappointingly little.

---

Or to put it another way, if you get them to ground floor level access, you will probably still have to pay to get them all taken away.
if you don't get them there, then it will probably cost you very significant money to have them removed!

I think the clue to value is the fact that the previous occupier of the building left them all.

One of my hobbies is playing the piano. On the piano forum I should think every week we get somebody who has bought a house and found an old piano therein. It is always an "antique" and a "beautiful piece of furniture" etc. Of course the question then is "how much is it worth?" They are usually saddened to hear that it will actually cost them money to get it hauled off to a landfill somewhere!

The trouble with such wonderful safes as that Ratner is that there just isn't much cash circulating these days. So many purchases are made by plastic card. So whereas in the old days there were plenty of independent retailers, such as petrol stations or bookies, who handled a lot of cash, nowadays they just aren't there. Even in retailing of other items most stores are branches of large corporations and they buy new.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chubby

I think the clue to value is the fact that the previous occupier of the building left them all.


The trouble with such wonderful safes as that Ratner is that there just isn't much cash circulating these days. So many purchases are made by plastic card. So whereas in the old days there were plenty of independent retailers, such as petrol stations or bookies, who handled a lot of cash, nowadays they just aren't there. Even in retailing of other items most stores are branches of large corporations and they buy new.

---

You're so right Chubby, in the 'old days' the Truck Acts decreed that a workman be paid in 'coin' and it wasn't until around the 1960's that they could be paid by cheque etc. No more huge payrolls. Beginning of the end for the safe industry, apart from pawnbrokers, jewellers, and banks.

As for the quality of safes that insurers would accept, in the immediate post-war years when new quality safes were in short supply, the gelignite and torchers activities meant that insurance losses exceeded premiums and trade really began to thrive. Alas, no more.

I haven't, really, had any contact with UK for the better part of 20 years.

Do supermarkets still offer "cash back" with purchases? That gets them cleared funds in their account immediately and, of course, reduces their cash holding.

I don't suppose that there is the demand there used to be for night sfae facilities either.

Where in the UK are you?
If the safes are being scrapped, I'll happily "recycle" the locks. Into my collection.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chubby

I haven't, really, had any contact with UK for the better part of 20 years.

Do supermarkets still offer "cash back" with purchases? That gets them cleared funds in their account immediately and, of course, reduces their cash holding.

I don't suppose that there is the demand there used to be for night sfae facilities either.

---

Not unlike yourself Chubby I am finding myself out of touch in the field of cash handling. Banks, supermarkets, and department stores don't seem to have the same need of physical protection as I remember and now appear to be adopting 'cash management' systems.

Attachment 18653 Gunnebo appear to be in the forefront as might be expected.

A friend of mine, now passed on sadly, worked in the security department of one of the Scottish Banks and told me that somewhere in Head Office there is a letter written by him in the 1970's on the subject of ATMs in which he wrote "they will never catch on"!

What, I wonder, would he have prophetised of Cash Management.