Wooden Prison Doors refurb, need some advice on the locks Ive found.

Hi, I am currently refurbishing two prison doors with working locks, (Charles smith and sons of Birmingham) there old but as to the age of the locks I can asume there poss victorian or 1940? hence posting here to seek some advice. I have made a video of the project Im doing in my spare time which may be of interest.

vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HzZ...ature=youtu.be

I have taken some pictures to help, I have also the keys of which are called "Servant Keys" one "Male" and one "Female" any info about these would be great.

Thanks

This is as detailed an article as you will ever find about Charles Smith & Sons: (article deleted due to complaint by copyright holder : Team Leader)


This my less sophisticated (ie warded Charles Smith):

http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...DSC_0440-1.jpg[/URL]
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http://s968.photobucket.com/user/gmanphotog/media/English%20Lock%20Collection/DSC_0409.jpg.html]http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...DSC_0409-1.jpg[/URL]
http://s968.photobucket.com/user/gmanphotog/media/English%20Lock%20Collection/DSC_0407.jpg.html]http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...DSC_0407-1.jpg[/URL]
http://s968.photobucket.com/user/gmanphotog/media/English%20Lock%20Collection/DSC_0391.jpg.html]http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...DSC_0391-1.jpg[/URL]
http://s968.photobucket.com/user/gmanphotog/media/English%20Lock%20Collection/DSC_0394.jpg.html]http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...DSC_0394-1.jpg[/URL]
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http://s968.photobucket.com/user/gmanphotog/media/English%20Lock%20Collection/DSC_0397.jpg.html]http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...DSC_0397-1.jpg[/URL]
http://s968.photobucket.com/user/gmanphotog/media/English%20Lock%20Collection/DSC_0399.jpg.html]http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...DSC_0399-1.jpg[/URL]
http://s968.photobucket.com/user/gmanphotog/media/English%20Lock%20Collection/DSC_0401.jpg.html]http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...DSC_0401-1.jpg[/URL]
http://s968.photobucket.com/user/gmanphotog/media/English%20Lock%20Collection/DSC_0402.jpg.html]http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...DSC_0402-1.jpg[/URL]
http://s968.photobucket.com/user/gmanphotog/media/English%20Lock%20Collection/DSC_0403.jpg.html]http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...DSC_0403-1.jpg[/URL]
http://s968.photobucket.com/user/gmanphotog/media/English%20Lock%20Collection/DSC_0390.jpg.html]http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...DSC_0390-1.jpg[/URL]
http://s968.photobucket.com/user/gmanphotog/media/English%20Lock%20Collection/DSC_0418.jpg.html]http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...DSC_0418-1.jpg[/URL]

Hi, Many thanks, this is great what a great post of information. :(y):
Thanks
Andy

Just looked at the video. This is awesome! Yours is probably more similar to my Gibbons lock than my Charles Smith. My Gibbons has an automatic bolt throw, but not the indicator dial. Mine is from 1916, but it still has that roughhewn hand made quality. On the backs of these things they almost go out of there way to make it look rough cut.

American Prison lock cases are almost always made of some sort of die cast metal and usually have a very finished look, even when handmade. Uk locks are handcut from sheet of steel. You can see that rough quality in the cladding of the doors and how it fits to the door. I really glad you showed how they are fitted.

An American jailsmith would look at that lock and wonder where the other half of it is. American Locks are always fully enclosed. There is no consideration that door itself will protect the mechanism. American Locks are typically highly armored locks encased in several more layers of armor. It why the door weighs 300 pounds- a 7 pound lock has 30 pounds of armor. It a wonder they can make a hinge for it.

Great video- looking forward to seeing more. Still sifting through em.

The doors and locks were from a UK Police station in "Douglas" near Lanark in Scotland,that had closed. It was by pure chance I seen the advert selling them and I went to see them, I decided to video it etc as I have an interest in locks and Prison doors, as well as Escapology.

The info you posted is great as well as your pictures showing your lock, I will be also doing the same with the other lock when done with this one. One thing I have noticed is that the lock parts have each a small indentation in them like a metal puch mark. Il show this next in a video clip, looks like there possible id marks?

All the best
Andy

Thomas invented the 'Pentonville' cell lock in 1842, as a cheap cell lock. It was widely used in provincial prisons, and in police stations. Smith was one large maker; they were also made by Gibbons. The OP's locks are a later development, adding levers and an indicator.

Many local police stations were quite modest, often only a couple of cells, occupied mainly by drunks, poachers, and petty thieves. Cells and their doors were rarely subjected to violent or skilled attack, and prisoners had to be 'conveyed before a magistrate as soon as may be', which except on Saturday was usually the next day. Larger stations, and prisons, would be able to separate men and women prisoners. Not common in small English police stations though.

The local history collection in the library might help date the building. Sometimes a retired local copper with an interest, or just a long memory, can be helpful on history.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shammon

Hi, I am currently refurbishing two prison doors with working locks, (Charles smith and sons of Birmingham) there old but as to the age of the locks I can asume there poss victorian or 1940? hence posting here to seek some advice. I have made a video of the project Im doing in my spare time which may be o

Thanks

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Hi, I have recently cleaned and
Polished a key that like yours says servant key male cells. I noticed the text on the key has been hand engraved. I have addead pics of a bunch of prison keys from various makers that strongly resembles yours. Some are Gibbons and some are masters without makers stamps. I normally only collect safe keys but after buying one which I thought was a safe key I have gained interest in prison keys. I find it very interesting to see what the locks they belong to look like and wish you luck in your worthwhile endeavors.

Hello!
In the 1850's and 1860's there was a massive building of solitary Cell Prisons of different Sizes, all based on the Pentonville Model Prison. I send you some Pictures of the standardtype Cell Door Locks used in Norway in the 1850- and 1860-prisons in Norway. OurDepartement of Justice bought a large Quantity of these from Britain. The oldest have knob-handles, the newer t-shaped handles - but works the same way. Similar locks in each Prison, differing a bit between the Prisons. Seems there was different numbered types of locks/keys, see cell key in pictures 5.

My Questions:

• Is this the type of Lock Thomas invented for Pentonville in 1842?
• Thomas - who was he? Is there som more information to find about him? What was his Role when building Pentonville?
• Is it possible to say who made these Locks? I have been thinking James Gibbons & Sons in Wolverhampton (they have this lock as object number BIMW210 in Wolverhamptons Art Gallery's website). After reading in this Thread, however, I am now wondering if it can be Charles Smith of Birmingham. The Locks are simple, but the Quality impressive!

I have written three books about some of the "1860-Prisons" in my Country. By doing so, i have wanted (if possible) to find out who made these locks. I would ble grateful if someone could help me here.

Best Regards

Knut Even Isaksen

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Hi.

I recon it looks more like a Gibbons, I have about 20 old Jail cell locks from a rare Charles Smith to several Gibbons. I also have 6 Chubb 4L Series custodial cell locks as well as an old original chubb cell lock.

Im hosting an exhibition here in Scotland for the month of May where I will be showing a wide collection of my cell locks as I specialize in Jail Cell escapes, that's correct and not a typo, I'm one of only a few in the world who can actually escape from prisons and will be attempting to escape under test conditions in October this year from Peterhead Prison in Scotland.



Ive renovated many old locks and found info under the years of paint, check the end bold bar its often stamped. I can ID who even made the old chubb locks as they had there if initials stamped on them. Tom Sadler and his brother made many of them. They are featured in my Exhibition along with one of his locks,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef_sL9sMgBA

I would like to know more about your books as very interested. If your over then try to see the exhibition. runs from 5th May to 28th May 2017 in Eastkilbride Arts Centre. Has a lot of Jail cell escape displays inc keys.

http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...xzpdyjlr-1.jpg[/URL]

http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...2_zpsfeh-1.jpg

http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...2s7kiill-1.jpg

I rather disagree. Knuts lock looks more like a Charles Smith to me. It's a dead ringer for the lock I posted earlier in the thread. Moreover Knuts lock is a slam lock as is the one I posted.

With mine the bolt makes contact with the door frame and retracts (or resets). The guard then lifts the handle and the bolt shoots through to the first position. By using the key the bolt can be extended two more positions.

Secondly Knuts lock is warded, as mine is. Your Charles Smith is a lever lock, as are the Gibbons locks I've encountered. This lock is less sophisticated than your Charles Smith, but very similar to mine. I think if you removed the back plate cover, Knuts would find his to be quite similar.

On my Charles Smith, the handle does not rotate as it does with the Gibbons I've encountered. Knut, does your handle lift up and allow the bolt to shoot through or does it rotate?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shammon

Hi.

I recon it looks more like a Gibbons, I have about 20 old Jail cell locks from a rare Charles Smith to several Gibbons. I also have 6 Chubb 4L Series custodial cell locks as well as an old original chubb cell lock.

Im hosting an exhibition here in Scotland for the month of May where I will be showing a wide collection of my cell locks as I specialize in Jail Cell escapes, that's correct and not a typo, I'm one of only a few in the world who can actually escape from prisons and will be attempting to escape under test conditions in October this year from Peterhead Prison in Scotland.



Ive renovated many old locks and found info under the years of paint, check the end bold bar its often stamped. I can ID who even made the old chubb locks as they had there if initials stamped on them. Tom Sadler and his brother made many of them. They are featured in my Exhibition along with one of his locks,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ef_sL9sMgBA

I would like to know more about your books as very interested. If your over then try to see the exhibition. runs from 5th May to 28th May 2017 in Eastkilbride Arts Centre. Has a lot of Jail cell escape displays inc keys.

http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...xzpdyjlr-1.jpg[/URL]

http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...2_zpsfeh-1.jpg

http://www.antique-locks.com/images/...2s7kiill-1.jpg

---

Hello!
Thank you for you kind reply, Shammon.

I would surely like to have the opportunity to see your exhibition! Hope you'll post pictures of your exhibition, so I at least can experience it digitally. Als the "art" of escaping - interesting for me! Going through history and prison records for 250 years, I have seen some variants of those in the prisons I know - sawing ironbars with soap to reduce noise, digging through brick walls etc.

Also thank you for your interest in my books. They each describe one of three (in my district) out of 56 local cell prisons all over this country (800 cells in all - mostly small prisons) - built in a reform in the 1860's. Norway is a relatively large country with a small population - even more so in the 1860's. In my books I try to describe this reform. One of our local 1860-prisons is still in use, one was destroyed by German bombing during the invation in april 1940 and the smallest one was terminated as a prison in the autumn of 2005. The latter is now renovated, and an integrated part of the the newly built cultural school i Molde opened in the autumn 2016. The earlier cells are meetings rooms and offices for the school master and teachers. This is a success - the staff, children and youth thrive!

The books contain a lot of pictures - but the text is of course Norwegian. Text scanning and Google Translate should make it possible to understand.

If you want the books, I will be happy to send them to you. Just send your postal adress to my e-mail:

kisakse@online.no

Best regards

Knut Even

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Hello!

Thanksto Shammon and gmanphotog for kind replys!
I try once more – my earlier post came out a bit messy!

The lockI have is solid and quite simple. Warded – is that the cover on the inside ofthe lock? My lock is a slam lock. When locking, the handle is lifted (notturned) when slamming the door. For double- lock the key is rotated one turn tothe right (or left, depending on derection of door swing). Unlocking byrotating the key opposite direction.

I guess perhaps my lock must be the older type invented byJohn for Pentonville – simple, cheap and less sophisticated? This type was madeby several locksmiths in Britain? The nice form of the brass keyhole plate - canthat be the “key” to the problem? Did both Gibbons and Smith make that design?

I havethree cell door locks of the same type – two of which working with key. I havestripped one of those for paint, but didn’t notice any identification. Thethird lock was smashed by an angry prisoner, and is not working! In the weekendI will open this and watch closer for traces of the maker. My locks come fromthe same prison, of which I enclose a picture of 1896. The locks were solid,but they demanded attention by the staff – escapes happended by prisonerstricking the guard into the cell and slamming the door! The locks also had thereputation of being easy to pick – with the hook of a hanger etc. In the 1890’s,a officer one night forgot to lock the hatch in the cell door – the prisoner openedthe hatch, and picked the cell door lock open. He didn’t get very far – he wasfound the following morning – stuck in one of the chimnys – black as a wiper!

My lockhave quite an impressing service life – from 1865 to 1978 – when the originalcell doors were changed to modern steel doors! I guess the locks must have beenoverhauled a couple of times in their career. And perhaps modified? As a law student,I worked in the summer as a prison officer in one of the bigger 1860-prison in Bergen(closed in 1990). The cell locks there were similar – worked the same way – buthad a small knob coming out of the cover plate - indicating double lock. Canthis be a modification, or were some of these locks originally made like this?I also worked a bit in one of the biggest prisons in Oslo, built in 1934. Thelocks there were made by a locksmith in Oslo, but interestingly as a smallercopy of the type of lock I have, workingthe same way. They too had the double-lock indicator knob. These lockswere on the outside of the cell door, not slotted into it. I enclose somephotos of this lock.
Hope you find this material interesting.

Best regards
Knut Even
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