Hello, is anyone aware of this locking mechanism it’s very interesting. If so does anyone know the name and have any info about it? Maybe it’s made by Chubb?
Please see attached photos
Printable View
Hello, is anyone aware of this locking mechanism it’s very interesting. If so does anyone know the name and have any info about it? Maybe it’s made by Chubb?
Please see attached photos
It is called: Lafette. It has been used a lot in Germany with Kromer Protector locks maybe until the 90s. IMHO it is mainly a convenience feature as it does only improve the security again attacks by explosives, but makes other attacks easier.
The Lafette's specialty is its ability to operate a very thick door with a very short key.
It eliminates the need for long extended safe keys or detachable bits as a door a metre or more thick can be unlocked by a key just a few inches long.
Ive never considered the Kromer Protector version as giving any protection against explosives or manipulation as the ones I've seen the entire Lafette shaft can be removed from the outside simply by a small screw, revealing the shaft sized hole through the entire door over the locks. The big Tann RDV's I used to work on had massive glass plates and remote live and dead relockers in defence.
Bode Panzer and Garny also used their own variations of the Lafette, of which the Bode Panzer Tangential is arguably the ultimate example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cepasaccus
I attach a more descriptive photograph.
Attachment 21484 I first came across this feature in my first weeks as a trainee safe mechanic. We were called to the offices of what had been the German Consulate in Glasgow in 1948 and which was now occupied by the brand new NHS.
The safe, a Bode Panzer from memory, had already been x-rayed by the Ministry. It had two Kromer KC dials for which I believe the combinations were known but they failed to release the boltwork. It was then and only by chance that my foreman discovered that the top dial was a dummy and a search was then made for the key bit, the discovery of which finally allowed the safe to be opened.
If you are referring to my posting: The protection against explosives is a feature of the Lafette as it closes the key hole, not the Protector (the key lock).Quote:
Originally Posted by Huw Eastwood
That is why I think it is mainly a convenience feature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Huw Eastwood
Yes, I was referring to the Lafettes used specifically on the Kromer Protectors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cepasaccus
While the Lafette shaft does indeed close the keyhole like you say, my point is that it offers zero protection against explosives because it can easily be removed from the door- nothing to do with the Kromer Protector lock whatsoever.
Once removed, it gives even more 'access room' over the locks for manipulation or explosives attack than a normal keyhole would.
Older Lafette versions and those by Bode Panzer and Garny might well be assembled or fastened from the inside of the door preventing removal- it would make far more sense. The Lafette shaft might also be locked or 'checked' by the secondary lock preventing its operation when the unit is locked. This would make a big difference.
All versions I have seen or heard about are Lafettes which can only be pulled out when the combination lock is unlocked. So when a burglar comes to a safe all holes are closed and he can't remove the Lafette. As soon as a burglar can overcome the combination lock all security benefits go down the drain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Huw Eastwood
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cepasaccus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OZ4lt2T3do
- In addition, once the other lock has unlocked the Lafitte, the dial on the latter has to be turned to 50 before it can be withdrawn.
- Are there any KC lock manipulators employing their skills illegally who are unknown to the authorities?
I'd forgotten about that video of Brian demonstrating the Tangential.
I've got a one-off around somewhere I made from a Peake safe I'd heavily modified over to glass and Mersey locks in the 90s. I'll see if I can dig it out and post some pics.
Made the main shaft in brass with separate key cradle machined from6061 alloy to similar design like what safeman posted, ie not folding like the bode Panzer.Getting the key to balance in the cradle with so much of the business end projecting to clear the steel mountings and glass was the tricky bit, Had to make heavier bows for the keys in order to get them to remain balanced when the shaft was pulled in and out of the door- users are often pretty rough with them. The Tanns I used to see regularly with the Kromers certainly had a hard life.
The older Bode Panzer hinged design looks better simply in that there's no fiddling with fingertips to get the key out!!
That is a Protector key which has been used in a Lafette.
They sure can get a hammering during use. Once it all starts to wear slightly the guide hole up the end of the kromer keys gradually closes over from hitting the drill-pin in the lock, making the keys progressively tighter to engage and turn.
It was a regular job to run a reamer up the end of the keys to keep them working smooth, also cleaning the guide slot down the side of the lafette shaft.
Talking of Tangential’s, imagine what this little lot would be worth...
Attachment 21519
This is what I imagine Brian M’s kitchen table looks like :(nerd):
It must be a strong table!
How much reaming would they stand? Eventually they must have needed replacing?
The reamer was only cleaning out the end of the bore where it was starting to close over, a sharp angled csk from a lathe centre drill also helped. there’s also the risk of damage from heavy handling/repeated dropping of keys but even then, reaming the pipe only removes a tiny skim- the raised/projecting metal and no more. Modern locks like Mauers and Stuvs with pipe keys are no different. It was other issues with the protektor locks that saw most replaced in the end.
OK. I was thinking about some of those old, worn pipe blank keys that were paper thin and sharp as a razor.
everyone else was discussing Kromer Protektors being used with LafettesQuote:
Originally Posted by Chubby
I am sorry, I did not express myself clearly.
Reading this thread reminded me of how sharp a hollow keycan get. I wondered if the reaming process caused sharpness over time.