Herring Hall Marvin 3 door safe

I have a 3 door Herring Hall and Marvin safe. The top 2 doors are open and can remove back plate showing tumbler. I cannot figure the combinations out and it does look like they are changeable. I could drill a hole in the back plate of the lock to figure it out but would prefer not to. As you can see the safe doors are numbered from top to bottom 419-420-421. Also stamped just above the dial are the numbers 1132-1133-1134. The bolts on the two locks are numbered 315-top door and 307-middle door.The bottom door is locked, any solution as to opening it? The doors are removable when open. I would also like to figure the weight , I will have to have it moved as I cannot seem to budge it. It is setting on top of a Maximum safe that is in the neighborhood of 1000 to 1300 lbs. I think the age is somewhere in the late 1800's but sure that someone here would have more knowledge than I. I do plan on using it as it does seem secure.
Measurements are 34 3/4 in H x 17 3/4 in W x 23 3/4 in D Top door is 19 7/8 in tall 2 bottom doors are 6 7/8 in tall
Locks are brass. Thickness of doors are 1/2 in steel Thickness of sides are 3/8 in and looks to be 2 pieces sandwiched to 1/2 in. Top and bottom thickness is 1/4 in.
I am trying to put as much information as I can. There are NO patent numbers that I can find and have listed above the only numbers that I can find.
Also, It looks as to have had keyed day locks? that the internals have been removed.
I hope my pics come out OK. I could get not a good pic of dial but it does say Herring Hall Marvin Safe Co,Hamilton Ohio.

Thanks

I am unsure from the pictures how the hinge side of the door is constructed. Are there really external hinges with no dog bolts> If so, I know how I would open it. I also know how I would greatly improve the security with a little welding.

OP I'd be careful what you use it for, think of it more as a 'heavy locker'.
It looks the sort of inner unit intended for fixing inside a proper free standing safe, to offer daytime security on the inner compartments. Often different staff would have access to different doors and each be responsible for the contents of their own compartment. It would then all be protected by the main outer safe when locked up at closing time.

There are modern variations still made today, lots of businesses like post office etc used similar.

I will take a couple more pics later of the inside door construction. You could cut the hinges off but the flap inside fits into the body of the "strong box" would keep it from being pried. I actually have this sitting inside of a Mosler bank vault. That box is setting on top of a Maximum TL/15-TL/30. My building used to be a Bank of America at one time. I am out of town right now so will be tomorrow for replies.

So it does have a dog bolt. I couldn't see from your photos. That's a good thing.

Here are some more pics. Looking down the edge, Showing the screws it is attached with, the channel it fits into and the hinge showing the tightness of the door when closed. The dog bolt is made from brass. I know i posted pics from the lock and realize I should start a new thread in locks forum? I also took more of those.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DaddyO2

I know i posted pics from the lock and realize I should start a new thread in locks forum? I also took more of those.

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There is no need to post again in the locks forum, it is fine here under safes and is likely to get far more views here anyway.

Thanks Huw. When I get down to my building later I will post the pics of the lock. I will need help to figure out the combinations of the two locks that are open and how I can open the closed door. I had been using it and accidentally turned the dial to far and it locked.
I also have a bank vault downstairs that I will show later. Probably early 1900's. I do have the combination for it.

With that good sized round hole in the door, it shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Here are pics of the locking mechanism.
Chubby,I sent pics of the relationship of the hole (hole is a from removed day lock). Can you expand on not be much of a problem?

I have looked at many pictures trying to find this particular "safe ? lock box ?" and not finding it any where. Back to the basic questions of, Age? Weight? How to figure out the combos (or changing thereof) of the 2 open doors?
Is there a way to count the holes on the dials to accomplish this? Last resort is to drill a 1/2 in hole in the back plate to line up the detentes. If I could just change the combos would be best. The nearest locksmith that would have knowledge of these locks is about 3 hours away from my location , not a very good return for the money to have him come in.

Was there a manual that came with these locks so the owners could change them or was that a locksmith only function?

There was an old book HPC safe and vault manual that had tryout combinations that may have been for this type of lock, but best way I can see to do it is to fit the wheelpack, dial the combination to a single number and then remove the pack without disturbing it and see where the gates are in relation to the flipper fence until you narrow down the correct numbers.

Vaguely recalled seeing something like that somewhere, thought it might have been in the old American Safe Man's Guides, but have just found volume 2 and although theres some weird old HHM's in there, theres nothing like that. Will look out for volume 1 as its around here somewhere.

Funny when Gary mentioned the HPC manual that sounded familiar as well, but mine is this 1981 version, unfortunetely of no help here.
Attachment 18669

As Huw stated, that safe is a locker and its highly unlikely you will find a picture of it. Typically used inside a bank vault or possibly a safe for daytime use. Early 1900's and if you look at the backside of the wheels you should find numbers for each hole. Note the wheels are on the back cover of the lock which is screwed on with 2 screws. With the cover off the lock opens correct? Too much information?

Yes, the wheels are located on the back cover and when off the lock will open.There is never TMI when I am trying to learn about something.

Did not want to remove wheels until I had some guidance. There is a spring ring holding the wheels and I will mark them with a sharpie and take 1 wheel off at a time. Would be great if there are numbers on the back of them.There is a scribe mark on the inside of the cover showing where the wheels line up. Hopefully it will help me figure the combo out.
So looking at the small screws on the wheels, i assume that it where a pin goes through the holes to be able to change the combination? I will do a search for the book Huw mentioned
As far as trying to open the bottom lock I will probably measure the locations of the screws holding the dog leg on the small door above it and drill. My brother in law has a welding shop so no problem.

I would tell your brother in law exactly what I said. Maybe a light bulb will go off.

Wanted to let everyone know that I have found the combos to the top doors that were open. 1 is a 3 number combo and the other is a 1 number combo that I figure is factory. That leaves me 79 tries to open the bottom with 1 number before other measures. Special thanks to Chubby and Doug for their thoughts. I will now start a new thread on a vault that is sure to pick the interest of many. Look for Mosler vault circa 1906?