Pillard combo lock

Hello to All, Looking for some advice on a Pillard combo lock please

Hi Everyone,

First let me say it is a pleasure to be able converse with you all, and have access to such a wealth of knowledge.
It's a wonderful resource, and I greatly appreciate everyone's time and any assistance you may be so kind as to offer.

I'm in Canada, and have recently come into possession of two antique safes via my deceased father. One is in a shed, in quite rough shape, and I have to learn a lot more about before I can ascertain if it's salvageable or not.

The other is relatively clean, (although bears many coats of repaint, etc), but I cannot find a single marking on the outside (including back and bottom) to indicate the manufacturer of the safe itself.
The Lock however, upon a gentle cleaning, reveals some fine lettering in the brass. It curves around the flat of the dial knob, as follows:
PILLARD S., May 9 1871, No 19

I've done some (very) rudimentary research over recent weeks, and managed to track that Oliver Pillard was a maker of locks and combination locks for a number of safe manufacturers around this time. I've even managed to track down some of his patents: (Pgs 169-173, specifically)
(Please refer to rules regarding the posting of links:
http://www.antique-locks.com/showthr...ique-Locks-com)

I gather that this is a type 19 lock, and from the patent drawings, I get the gist of how the mechanism works.

HOWEVER:

I do have the correct combination (from my father, before he passed), but I'm having trouble getting it open. I have tried it now and again over the last few weeks, when i have a few moments, but I can't seem to get it open - again.

Yes, Again. LOL

I was initially experimenting weeks ago with the combination numbers he gave me, as I was unsure of the Exact process (x turns L, y turns R, z turns L - and then, turn slowly R - or spin? - but Should the lever drop? Must I jiggle and turn, - or not? How many full rotations to each number?, etc) - when I got it to open. Once.

Unfortunately, I was running thru variations at the time, HAD to leave for an appointment, and closed it up again. Overconfidence that I would NOW be able to open it again without much trouble has shot me in the proverbial foot, I'm afraid. :)

I've since tried to RE-open it a few hundred times - to no avail. And can't seem to remember or recreate the variation sequence that works.

If there is anyone out there who's familiar with this type of lock, and the exact order / process to open it , I would greatly appreciate any help. We're getting down to some time-sensitive things that need to be retrieved for his estate and business, and I don't want to have to damage the lock or safe.

I NEED to open it soon, but I Want to then clean it up, clean it out, service the mechanism, and discover what I can about this safe and the other old one. The process so far has really piqued my interest.

Thank you in advance for any help.

Regards

Welcome odinfix, adding some clear photos of the safe and of the dial will help members establish exactly which you have.

Thanks for the reply. Here's the dial, where I got the lock details:

Here is the bolt handle.

Sorry, that is a decorative top corner detail. The bolt handle pic won't upload. I'll have to lower rez on my phone cam and retake some detail pics of the safe. Meantime, anyone out there fmailiar with / have hands-on experience with these Locks?

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by odinfix

Sorry, that is a decorative top corner detail. The bolt handle pic won't upload. I'll have to lower rez on my phone cam and retake some detail pics of the safe. Meantime, anyone out there fmailiar with / have hands-on experience with these Locks?

Thanks

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R4 times to 1st#
L3 times to 2nd#
R2 times to 3rd#
L to stop.

DH

Thanks for the info David.
I've tried that sequence a couple times this morning, but no dice so far.

My father had written it down:
5xL - 1st #
2xR - 2nd#
1xL - 3rd#

Which obviously wasn't working. I know when I DID get it to open the One time, weeks ago, I was experimenting with # of turns BOTH ways (LRL and RLR) - so it very much COULD have been RLR (as you said) that worked for me that once.

I'm trying, as You advised:
4xR to 1st # (Passing "0" 4x, and stopping on 1st#)
3xL to 2nd# (Passing 1st# 3x, and stopping on 2nd#)
2xR to 3rd# (Passing 2nd# 2x, and stopping on 3rd#)
Slowly turning Dial back to L (Listening for click & feeling for dial stop)

I've also tried / incorporated:
- The above exact sequence reversed (LRLR)
- Doing both of the above sequences while jiggling the door and/or bolt handle while giving the final (drop) dial turn, and also tried shimming the door with folded paper to put slight inward pressure to create a neutral hang, should anything be leaning outward against it from the inside.
- Pre-rotate dial in direction opposite of 1st sequence turn, a minimum of 4 times before starting sequence

No luck so far.

Very frustrating, as I KNOW the numbers work - otherwise it wouldn't have opened once.
I feel like there must be SOMEthing very simple I'm overlooking.

Any ideas what I could be doing wrong, or something I've misread? Does anyone out there have a Pillards No 19 to try / confirm the turn sequence on, etc?

Thank you in advance for any assistance.

You may a dialing wrong by the looks...

Dial like this:
Left 4 times to your first number.
Right two times past your second number, stoping the third time up.
Left one time past your third number stoping the second time up.
Right slowly until the dial comes to a stop, around 95.

Thanks Yankee.

I've just tried your sequence as well ( both L-R-L-R and R-L-R-L), but still no joy.

I had previously tried every variation I could think of, had read about, etc (4x3x2x - turn for drop, passing 0 as first ref point, passing the first , then second, third, #'s as their own discrete reference points, both directions, etc), using every variation that I could think of - but still no joy. I'm turning super slow, medium speed, you name it. I make sure the door is hanging neutral, I jiggle the bolt handle,....I've even gotten down to listen with a stethoscope on the door, listening for noises :(giggle): - all to no avail.

I can't for the life of me figure out WHICH variation / sequence I used when I opened it the One time. (And HOW many times I've kicked myself since!!! :(wasntme):)

I was hoping someone out there might ideally have one of these locks, and be willing to test / confirm the EXACT sequence for me, (using their own combo & lock, obviously), or have some first hand knowledge thereof.

The lock MAY have something stuck mechanically ( although it seems unlikely that it would have somehow jammed or stuck in the last few weeks, after oh...a hundred years lol..but ..Murphy is strong against me, it seems :(blush):) and if I could KNOW the exact sequence for SURE, and HAVE the numbers..I'll be able to test repeatedly to open it...or know for sure it's just beating my head against a very old door lol.

As it is, I'm just scratching my head and more than a bit frustrated. LoL

Anyone out there have one of these (No 19 Pillards) to test?

Thanks again to everyone who's responded so far. Much appreciated.

The normal dialing sequence is as I posted before. The lock drops in and opens to the left. With that said, and working backwards a 3 wheel lock such as yours dials accordingly; R,L,R,L.

I'm trying, as You advised:
4xR to 1st # (Passing "0" 4x, and stopping on 1st#)
3xL to 2nd# (Passing 1st# 3x, and stopping on 2nd#)
2xR to 3rd# (Passing 2nd# 2x, and stopping on 3rd#)
Slowly turning Dial back to L (Listening for click & feeling for dial stop)

Your above sequence (in other words) works out to be this;
R5 times to 1st#
L4 times to 2nd#
R3 times to 3rd#
L to stop.
Which is incorrect.

Forget about the zero it has nothing to do with the lock operation unless one of your combination numbers is zero. Forget about passing any numbers. More correctly think of just going to your numbers. The first time you go to your number it will not be a complete revolution of the dial. Understand?

Have you seen patent 114706?

DH

So you got me thinking...I dug out my pillard #17 lock that should be similar to his 19.
The lock has three wheels and a driver.

The correct dialing sequence is:
Right 4x to first number
Left 3x to the second number
Right 2x to the third number
Left to 100~ dial comes to a stop.

This lock is very susceptible to bolt pressure. Make sure that the boltwork handle is in the fully locked position.
I have more Pillards in my collection. .....I'll post more soon.

The Pillard number 10, is a rare latch lock.

It has three wheels and a driver. Note the unusual fence drop in point.

This dialing sequence is like today's modern locks:
Left 4x to first number
Right 3x to the second number
Left 2x to the third number
Right until the dial stops.

Thanks so much everyone!


I should have explained more fully from the start, but didn't want to tediously list Every variant way of dialing I've tried, including what everyone has suggested.

Before my initial posts, I'd ALSO gone thru each L-R-L_R and R-L-R_L variant with my numbers (Starting at both 0 on the dial/index line AND Starting from the 1st #, etc)...and then
1) proceeding (exactly as advised) from each # onward, ignoring the last #, ignoring 0 ,
2) proceeding using the last # passed to count the revolutions and stopping on the next#,
3) adding / reducing each number of revolutions for each # IN the sequence (starting 5x4x4x, 5x4x3x, 5x4x2, 5x3x3, 5x3x2, etc....4x4x4, 4x4x3, 4x4x2, 4x3x3, 4x3x2, etc..thru 3x3x3, 3x3x2...and so forth), using both of the above methods (and anything else I could think of / try) for both L-R-L_R and R-L-R_L sequences,
and basically every other thing i came across.

I'd gone at this logically, methodically, and with common sense to that point. That's why, when I began posting, I set ego 100% aside - to ask for ANY firsthand knowledge of, or ideally access to (enabling a hard test to 100% eliminate any and all other sequence variants once and for all) of a Pillards N0 19 combination lock.
I appreciate ANY help, and I'm trying it ALL as I receive it - even if I've tried those same methods a hundred times - in the hopes that I can eliminate at least some of the variables in this process.

I have tried about every method I could scour up on the net, and cannot get the safe to open again.. and yet: it Did- ONCE, with the numbers I have. Otherwise I would simply think the NUMBERS were incorrect at this point. Thus, you can see my frustration. :@: LoL

SO: I thank you for your continued patience with me folks. :D:
I truly DO appreciate Any and All assistance, advice, options, suggestions, or guesses - and I DO try any tip I receive - regardless of whether or not I've tried that exact method previously.

My father left me these safes when he passed away just 2 months ago and so perhaps they are, in a way, one of the last Tasks I can do with / for him. It's kind of important to me.

So I sincerely do thank Everyone for their continued help, once again. Keep em comin. :)-:

:(bow):

Thanks Yankee

I'll definitely give this a go. My No 19 looks much more similar to your No 10 than to the No 17, and your sequence matches the L-R-L-R sequence my father had written down. You'd mentioned in your earlier post that the locks are sensitive to Bolt pressure. Should I therefore hold pressure ON the bolt handle? And would you recommend pressure Toward the locked bolt position, or Away from locked, while dialing?

For reference: My safe has the hinges on the left side of the door, the dial in middle-Left, and bolt handle to the Left side of the door. Door locks on the Left.

Lastly, you'd also mentioned an unusual Drop point with these locks. I've only actually heard the drop Once lol - and it SEEMED loudly audible and obvious at the time - but HOW much "stop" should I expect to notice on the final dial turn? A "tick", a "click", a slight resistance, or a full "catch and stop" that prevents further dial rotation in that direction?

Again, forgive the simplicity of these questions. It's just that I've tried SO many ways, logically, and I know what I should expect for most Other locks: but since none of that works HERE, I think there Must be something unique and simple to THESE / This lock - something non-industry-standard that I'm missing.

Thanks so much for your help. :)-::)-:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yankee

The Pillards number 10, is a rare latch lock.

It has three wheels and a driver. Note the unusual fence drop in point.

This dialing sequence is like today's modern locks:
Left 4x to first number
Right 3x to the second number
Left 2x to the third number
Right until the dial stops.

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As to the locks having issues with bolt pressure.

One of the first things, we safecrackers do, when we begin the diagnosis of a locked safe, is to check the movement of the safe handle and play in the door.
The handle should have positive movement, play so to speak, left and right. You should feel and hear, the handle acting on the attached boltwork.

When you are at the final turn of the combination, apply pressure on the handle, in the locking direction. As you approach "0" on the dial, go slow and do two things simultaneously. .......shake the handle left and right. As you shake the handle, oscillate the dial about 20 numbers...you are trying to free up any pressure that might be holding the lock fence in the up position. Do this for just a few seconds, then continue turning the dial in the same direction as you were going.

Every Pillard lock I have come across, has a positive stop when it is unlocked. That means, when it unlocks, the dial comes to a complete stop, and can not be turned any further.

I think you are going to find that there is something very simple as to why your safe isn't opening.......don't over think this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yankee

The Pillard number 10, is a rare latch lock.

It has three wheels and a driver. Note the unusual fence drop in point.

This dialing sequence is like today's modern locks:
Left 4x to first number
Right 3x to the second number
Left 2x to the third number
Right until the dial stops.

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Chip, I've never seen the inside of a 10. Thanks for posting that one.

DH

Quote:

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Originally Posted by odinfix

For reference: My safe has the hinges on the left side of the door, the dial in middle-Left, and bolt handle to the Left side of the door. Door locks on the Left.

Thanks so much for your help. :)-::)-:

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I'm confused as to the hand of your door. This would make a big difference in the dialing sequence of your safe if you have a left hand lock. Posting a picture of the full front would help.

DH

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David Hovey

I'm confused as to the hand of your door. This would make a big difference in the dialing sequence of your safe if you have a left hand lock. Posting a picture of the full front would help.

DH

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Apologies, all details were as listed, Except: the hinges are on the Right side of the door.
Dial is Left of middle, Bolt handle is to Left of Dial. The throw bolt engages from the Left side of the door into the Left side of the safe. Door swings open on the hinges, L to R.

(Sorry, I'm not sure Why but the when I upload the photos it rotates them sideways.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David Hovey

I'm confused as to the hand of your door. This would make a big difference in the dialing sequence of your safe if you have a left hand lock. Posting a picture of the full front would help.

DH

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Here are some pics of the door:

Thank you for posting the pictures. So it's a RH door with a RH lock and it would dial as stated.

The only other thing I can think of is sometimes the user opens the lock backwards. If thats the case your last number is dialing left, you would have to dial right to drop-in then back left to stop.

Sorry I have no further information. Good luck on your opening, I'm sure you'll get it.

DH

In checking pictures of Pillard locks including the ones posted here, I have noticed that several have had the wheel gate openings filed wider to account for wear. This type of wear results in a misalignment of the gates at the fence and the lock becomes difficult to open. Generally it is the last wheel number that gets the abuse, but it is the first number dialed that shows the most misalignment due to the additive wear of all the wheels. Dealing with this problem is usually solved by slightly passing the number or numbers given.

Attachment 17954

Eureka!
I finally had some time to address this again recently, and to recruit some expert help from a local locksmith that specializes in antique locks. He was able to take the numbers my father had left, and all of the Pillards lock tips from you all, and work his way thru an opening.

It turned out the numbers from my father were Close, but would only work because he had also been spinning slightly past on each turn - AND we confirmed that he HAD inverted some of the numbers when he wrote out the sequence, as I suspected:(smirk):.

Once we got the safe open, the locksmith opened up the lock and worked his way thru the actual Exact numbers. After confirming them several times, he disassembled the lock, cleaned and reassembled it, and it now works perfectly - WITH the exact and correct numbers.

The actual dialing sequence was in fact the same as posted for a N10 Pillards:
Left 4x to first number (Pass 3 times and stop at 4th)
Right 3x to the second number (Pass 2x and stop at 3rd)
Left 2x to the third number (Pass 1x and stop and 2nd)
Right until the dial stops. (Positive Stop)

And, also as you all advised, Positive pressure (hard to Locked position) on the Bolt handle is imperative for the bolt drop. (In my case, Top of Bolt handle toward Left, or Non-Hinged side of door)
Lastly, for anyone else encountering one of these old gems, the dial DOES stop and lock solidly on that last turn to the Right after dialing the combination sequence.

Thanks to everyone out there for all your help and advice, and hopefully this post can help someone else as well.

Cheers to All
:(whew)::(party):