Here is a key I purchased at the Lancaster show last year, 2011. It is the oldest key in my collection, from the 1500's. I got it from someone who bought it in Parma, Italy. A real gem.
Printable View
Here is a key I purchased at the Lancaster show last year, 2011. It is the oldest key in my collection, from the 1500's. I got it from someone who bought it in Parma, Italy. A real gem.
Hi.
Calling all key experts! Please help me to identify and date this old key.
Thanks in advance.
Patent.
This is a beautiful key and made by a skilled Locksmith.
The keyway is a Trefoil type of design.
Warding is based on the Bridge Ward principle. Which means
the warding plate has the wards on both sides of the bridge.
Dating is some what problematic. The style and skill indicate
manufacture from about 14th century to the 16th century.
Not sure if it was a lost wax casting or else a brazed assembly?
I have seen both types of manufacture pre-dating your key
and also post-dating it.
The warding also has comb wards for added security.
Nice hand made keyhead design.
Overall this is a custom designed key for a very important use.
Back then a key was additionaly displayed as a sign of nobility
a social rank. Keys were worn externaly as a badge of Office
or Royal patronage. These are the possiblities but the exact
history is a matter of speculation.
Brian ................................................
Thanks,Brian for your comprehensive reply.
I would never have thought that the key could be at least 400 years old.
It has stood the test of time, has a wonderful patina,and is in remarkably good condition.
I think that the Brazing technique has been employed in its construction,the key is 4 1/2 inches in length.
The Trefoil stem still retains its form, the bit is also in good shape,possibly suggesting that it has had minimal usage.
Any idea of it's origin?
Thanks.
Patent.
You are welcome Patent.
Your fantastic key is a prize.
It contains elements of French, German
and British design. Perhaps a well connected
Master Locksmith made this from his favorite
parts of others designs?
Back before the internet..yes many younger people
have no idea of what hard book learning and be able
to converse in person with a Master was like LOL
Locksmiths had to learn from all possible sources.
I have included some jpegs of a German key for the ribbon
keyhead; a pre-revolution French Lost Wax key for the
shaft, Trefoil keyway and Comb Wards;
and a Tubular handcuff key for the keyhead, which was brazed.
Brian................................
Brian, you forgot Venetian. And zooming in on the bows of both keys, you can see they were brazed. Both are wonderful treasures. Thanks for posting them. Doug
Doug...I stand corrected.
I didn't hink about that possibility.
Venetian is an area I will have to study
to fill in some missing knowledge ;o)
You are welcome.
I use some of the antique keys as a basis for making
drawings for silkscreen prints.
So many graphic designers fail to use or realize that
real antique keys have to be used for authenticy.
Brian.....................
I can help you identifying your key. And I have research to back it up. Your key is Venitian from the late 1500's to early 1600's. Pictures of keys almost identical to yours appear in the French book of keys, "Des Clefs et des Hommes'. On page 82 there are three keys that I speak of. I have some wonderful books that are an outstanding source of reference material that I have aquired at lock shows. Let me know if you are interested and I'll put you in contact with the man I bought my books from.
hello together,
i read your posts about the keys and there is something wrong.
brass for brazing is genereally used at first in 17th century.
the first key (europelocks) is clearly younger, never 16th century.
on the market there are a lot of keys like this, maybe 19th century
or later, please see picture 11 and 22.
original keys from this period looks different in handle and bit
coming at first from italy, 33, 44
patent: your key looks great - if it is brazed with copper. but there
are no sign of a german key, bit and handle is italian, shank
is also known in france. 66
brian: first picture is asian/russian padlock key
second picture french 18th 19th century
third picture is not to identify, if orginal than french, if cast than fake
sorry, i forgot the pictures
Gerry, now that you are here, I have several questions to ask of you. I am sure Brian is interested as well. I will post them one at a time so as to keep things simple. Where is it that you have found that brass (copper/zinc) was first used as a brazing alloy in the 17th century? I looked up and found that zinc was first discovered in the 1300's. Of course that does not mean it was used at that time in alloy with copper for brazing. I am purely trying track down history. Doug
dr. morgenroth from key and lock museum in velbert, germany, told me about
and you will also find it in wikipedia (sorry in german): "Fest steht wohl, dass Messing
erstmals gezielt um 1550 n. Chr. aus Kupfer und Galmei erschmolzen wurde, es
aber erst um die Mitte des 17. Jahrhunderts verstanden wurde, Messing aus Kupfer
und Zink zu erschmelzen."
Greetings All:
One thing I dislike is a:
-subjective observation which makes a definite statement about an area the person knows little, at best, about.
Why would I make this assertion?
Because I own the Keys and their Lock mechanism.
Sure I make mistakes and own up to them. I never claim absolutes
about locks or keys.
On the basis of a timeline My first collecting experiences started in 1960.
Since then it has been a continuous learning experience. After becoming a Federal Government Security& Investigations Officer I asked for my duties to include Investigative Locksmithing. Being a Certified Police Weapons Instructor it added to my knowledge of
the mechanics of locks and keys. The term Lockbolt for a Firearm
comes from the basis that a Locksmith was also Gunsmith several hundred years ago with the primative projectile weapons. A Locksmith would forge and hammer the Firearm parts.
Additionly I am a graphic designer who researches the roots of graphics across time and civilizations. Thus my observations and opinions are based on observations made since my studies of graphics in 1970. I don't know too much about photography and won't venture too far out on a limb about what I haven't explored or have enough experience to make scant claims about.
[quote] brass for brazing is genereally used at first in 17th century.
**********The Roman Empire used to join their finger ring keys with soldier made from kind of metal alloy. The Chinese civilization were amking sophisticated Bronze & Bras castigs of several hundred pounds
about 5,000 years ago. Us idiots in the western civilization just started recently to practice this art? Amazing ;o)
[quote]the first key (europelocks) is clearly younger, never 16th century.
on the market there are a lot of keys like this, maybe 19th century
or later, please see picture 11 and 22.
*********Dating is a subjective opinion, unless we can bring the long deceased original Locksmith back to life through a seance?
[quote]original keys from this period looks different in handle and bit
coming at first from italy, 33, 44
*******There are so many variations that practically no one can state just what a matching design would resemble?
[quote]patent: your key looks great - if it is brazed with copper. but there are no sign of a german key, bit and handle is italian, shank
is also known in france. 66
******* I have no idea what your numbers refer to? There is a intermix of stylistic design cross overlaps
[quote]brian: first picture is asian/russian padlock key
second picture french 18th 19th century
third picture is not to identify, if orginal than french, if cast than fake
******You are way off base with your subjectives observations.
The French key came with the original surface mounted lock.
It is much older then you assert.
I have made Lost-Wax castings from bronze.
This included the carving of the Wax;
building the plaster case around the Wax with flute holes;
placing the plaster in the sandbox;
then the heating and pouring of the molten bronze;
finally placing the freshly caste bronze in a tub of cold water to temper it.
Additionaly I have made sand castings of bronze.
Some replacement keys I made from metal stock with hand tools.
So from a practical hands-on viewpoint I do possess experience
about casting and fabricating Keys and Lock parts from metal.
Just because something is caste doesn't make it an automatic
"fake" to use your word.
Brian ................................
**********************************************
Yikes. I sure didn't mean to stir up this hornets nest. That is the most replies to a post in 24 hours I've seen in awhile.
I though it would be a pretty fair assesment regarding the age of the key by using the pictures in books as a guide. Several of the books have similiar Vientian type keys dating them from the late 1500 to early 1600's. This style of bow, it says, is copying Gothic architecture of that period. So with all you out there would you say the key that is referenced below as #11 and my key which looks almost identical, attached, are from the 1500 - early 1600's?
And my second question, is using the reference books still a pretty good way to identify and date some keys? Not knowing the locksmiths from centuries ago, books are all we have to go on to identify these keys.
So I guess in the future I'll contine to add pictures of new keys to my collection, ask questions, observe from a distance, and keep my observations to myself. Hope I didn't offend anyone. I truely value your assistance and opinions.
Perhaps books and actual examples are guides and learning on some level is possible.
Some of the keys I obtained were from a Veteran WW1 and WW2 Soldier who was a Miliatry Policeman and part of his duties were to obtain the keys to important European buildings in captured town's and city's. If they were later destroyed by Combat action then he kept the keys.
Quite a few of the Europen key shafts were made to match the styles of furniture legs of the period. That I learned from a 86 year old Cabinet Maker way back in the late 1980's. He inherited locks and keys from another elderly Cabinet maker after the Apprenticeship period.
Then he passed them onto to me. It was with the implicit understanding they would be passed onto another intrinsic collector and life long student of the Locksmithing field.
While I agree books and photo's are a source for information, they leave out much information.
Hands-on working and repairing of locks anf keys reveal the human side not found in books.
The old guys in the field have acquired knowledge only passed down by word-of-mouth. So several background sources are culled through to come up with an opinion.
What is recorded in antique books is a somewhat delimited viewpoint of the Locksmith field.
Pictures, drawings, etchings, and other forms of graphic media are but a fraction of the background data available to us.
I continue to look forward to learning from my fellow collectors, students and peers.
Brian .............................................
*********************************************
I'm going to concur with Brian, though without any certainty. Craftsmen and styles travelled about Europe, and were practiced at various times and places. However, the OP's key could well be venetian/italian, renaissance (say 17C?), and, as he hinted, quite likely a chamberlain key rather than a functional one.
Although lost wax casting seems an obvious way of making such bows, all I have seen have actually been brazed. Zinc, incidentally, was used long before its identity as an element was certain.
On books, afaik, making 'steel' is first recorded in the 17C (from memory, Agricola); but the Romans certainly used steel knowingly, and many mediaeval tools had steel edges welded on. So indeed, books must be read with care - they are rarely complete.